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Author Topic: Time to upgrade  (Read 8125 times)

Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)

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Time to upgrade
« on: November 14, 2011, 06:12:40 pm »

My "club" rig contains 8 Yorkville LS1208's for bottoms that have served me well. Mostly using for electronic nights where the 'boomy' ls1208 can be tamed to really provide a great amount of bang for buck. Going low is important - and these have done a good job.

I have an opportunity to change the rig.. get something new.. and as most of you probably know... we can't resist these opportunities sometimes. So as easy as it is to sell something to someone else.. I have to think about what my next step is and I am definatley my worst critic.

my thoughts and not a prepared proposal.

1. Current setup is : KF650's over 8 ls1208s. The 1208's are powered by 4x bridged QSC PLX2502's (2 subs per amp). Proc is dolby lake or dbx 260 depending on what top rack is being used.

2. Power requirements are pretty much 120v 15amp edison plugs are a must. 4 or 5 circuits max. We use multiple venues so 4 is preferable. (this really limits what we can use)

3. I don't want a sidegrade. I need to improve output, quality, and or size.

4. Cost is a factor - but most real subs are within reach of cost.


So here are some contenders and my random thoughts

DBH218 looks nice.. but I can probably only buy 4 (because they would almost certainly need powersoft k6's to run well).. that is about the limit of my budget. 2 per side is not high enough to put kf650's on. Also I have a hard time believing 4 will be enough..

TH118 (6 or 8) is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability. How much better is the tapped horn than a horn? Will 6 th118s have equal output to 8 ls1208s? They seem like they may on paper. That would be nice.. I would be puzzled with what to power them with for under $10k. Also never really heard these in real world.. I know what they SHOULD sound like.. but I'm worried they may be to "hi-fi" for dance music.

Martin WSX - Love this box.. 3 per side would probably be all I can do.. seems like more of a side grade than any.

LABS - (8) a serious contender... but stacking 4 high (on the side) may be a bit of a pain in the arse (3 high is not tall enough) k6's on power again may be the best solution. Seems more of a side grade than an upgrade.

Powersoft K6 - The big reluctance with all of these is the efficiency. In my current config I have a good electrical setup. I also am making use of 4x 1800watts of circuits. The k6 is a fantastic amp. But I have a hard time agreeing that using just 2x 1800 watts of circuits is a smart thing to do. I know you can configure down the amp for what you are using.. and have used these a bit.. BUT I hate to waste the other 3600 watts of 120 volt I have available :/ 

There has got to be a better solution.  Any input?


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duane massey

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 08:04:50 pm »

Jeff, where are you located?
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 08:48:29 pm »

Jeff, where are you located?

I'm in Orlando.. but I'm usually all over the place if there is something I should take a look at.

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Randall Hyde

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:55:19 pm »



TH118 (6 or 8) is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability. How much better is the tapped horn than a horn? Will 6 th118s have equal output to 8 ls1208s? They seem like they may on paper. That would be nice.. I would be puzzled with what to power them with for under $10k. Also never really heard these in real world.. I know what they SHOULD sound like.. but I'm worried they may be to "hi-fi" for dance music.


No idea what they cost, but if they don't have to move much, you might look at the TH418 cabinets. Very efficient (though very heavy; not a good choice for portable setups).

BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you. If you've got ls1208 cabs stack up on both sides, try putting them all together and see if that doesn't improve things (outside of power alley).
cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 09:42:34 pm »


BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you.

I'm pretty sure Jeff knows WTF he's doing.

"Per side" is still the standard way of doing things when you don't have control of where your subs can be placed.   Barricades, etc.....



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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 09:48:40 pm »

TH118 (6 or 8) is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability.
The TH118 can be ordered in either 4 or 8 ohms.

If unspecified-the standard is 4 ohms.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Time to upgrade-Don't jump so fast
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 10:02:41 pm »



BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you. If you've got ls1208 cabs stack up on both sides, try putting them all together and see if that doesn't improve things (outside of power alley).
cheers,
Randy Hyde
\
People often automatically assume that a center cluster is always best.  But it depends on the particular situation.

Agreed that a single cluster will have less combfiltering-OUTSIDE. 

However that does not always make it better.  Sometimes 2 stacks (1 each side) will offer a more even "spread" of bass throughout the room-despite the power alley and interference the spacing provides.

With a center cluster-it will be really loud in the middle up front.  This may be what someone is looking for.  Others don't want to "plaster" the people up front.  Spreading them out will often help this.

ANd when you look at the models-most of them are only 2d and don't have the various reflective surfaces turned on.  Once you put the subs inside a real room-even a single sub-there are ALL SORTS of hot spots and dead spots-depending on freq and location.

An often overlooked thing called room modes-is simply ignored.
If you want to experience it for real-take a SINGLE sub (that should be best right?) and put it someplace in a room.  Put in a 50 or 60Hz tone-doesn't need to be loud-just loud enough to be heard good.

Now walk around. And unless you are outside or in a very large room-if you come back and tell me that it was nice and even I will call anybody a LIER.  The room modes will DOMINATE the response.  You may find that a couple of feet in front of the sub there is little to no sound.  It will vary all over the place.

Now change freq by 5-10Hz.  Now you will notice the high and low spots have all "moved around".

So the concept of a single source radiating out goes to pieces.

You HAVE to look at the WHOLE picture-not just a single piece of it.

Simple concepts often have simple-wrong-answers.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

duane massey

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 11:35:28 pm »

Yep, most of the installs I do have little or choice on sub location(s). In perfect world the sound system take precedence over everything else. In my world I have to fight sometimes just to get subs into the package. You do the best you can with what choices you are given.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)

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Re: Time to upgrade
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 11:58:15 pm »

The TH118 can be ordered in either 4 or 8 ohms.

If unspecified-the standard is 4 ohms.

Thats good news - and really makes electrical config more acceptable for this particular need. Altho my concerns that the Danley stuff may just be "too good". A conversation I have had with many of you about larger deployments.. as even the largest of our shows are still using rather old technology when it comes to subwoofers. Ivan one of these days I want a demo of 36 danley subs :)

As to the center cluster.. this is really not possible with these types of shows.. there is no raised stage or ability to put subs in the "middle" as they are DJ shows and a DJ is there without significant elevation.  L/R configuration is for reinforcement only.
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Jay Barracato

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Re: Time to upgrade-Don't jump so fast
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 09:49:14 am »

\
People often automatically assume that a center cluster is always best.  But it depends on the particular situation.


With a center cluster-it will be really loud in the middle up front.  This may be what someone is looking for.  Others don't want to "plaster" the people up front.  Spreading them out will often help this.


I guess this is the payback for all the shows where we have to fight stage spill in FOH, but I usually find the amount of wash back onto the stage unacceptable with center clustered subs, if no attempt is made at arraying them.

I actually have a strong preference for flown subs. Not everything is about maximum output.
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Jay Barracato
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