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Author Topic: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align  (Read 15834 times)

leon garrity

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danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« on: January 09, 2011, 08:12:04 am »

Hello,

i have not beeen on for a while,can anyone shed light on time aligning or phase aligning the subs to the tops......

Which way do i time align the system so i dont have phasing problems ,which i think i have at the minute.....

do i ,

delay the tops to the subs??????????
or the subs to the tops?????????

also what problems do i encounter when i place one sub at either side of the stage??????

the power alley effect,would it be better to stack them all at one point....a centre stack or a right stack?

Leon
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leon garrity

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 08:13:25 am »

The Danley is a horn loaded sub so if the horn is say 14 foot do i add a 14ft delay to the tops?

Leon
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leon garrity

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 09:21:02 am »

Also,

which is the best way to go.reverse polarity the subs,different people different views,well it depends on this depends on that,do you or dont you??????????

i read on here that the subs need to be reversed polaritied because of the magnet in TH115?????????

No point in buying a Ferrari then it runs like a scrapped car,

I ran the SM60 on a yamaha home cinema amp and it was awsome 60 watts.
In my live situation i put a FP3400 and it seems i have to thronk the living daylights out of it just to get it up there,also people who have watched us say it sounds muffled?????????

So if i am correct if the tops are not in phase with the subs then i get rhubarb sound or in simple terms a pile of bad sounding crap.

Leon


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Ivan Beaver

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 12:22:59 pm »

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 08:12

Hello,

i have not beeen on for a while,can anyone shed light on time aligning or phase aligning the subs to the tops......

Which way do i time align the system so i dont have phasing problems ,which i think i have at the minute.....

do i ,

delay the tops to the subs??????????
or the subs to the tops?????????

also what problems do i encounter when i place one sub at either side of the stage??????

the power alley effect,would it be better to stack them all at one point....a centre stack or a right stack?

Leon

The only "phasing problems" you would have would be around the crossover point.

What you align to what-depends on the physical position of the cabients to each other and the particular place you want to align them to.  Every other place will be different.

Whether you place them together or seperate depends on a lot of different variables.  One solution does not fit all-despite what some people think.  Each situation has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages.  Sometimes what is an advantgage in one situation is a disadvantage in another.

Each setup/room has to be evaluated on its own.

In most cases however (there are exceptions) I would not recommend putting all the subs on one side.  Although I have done it myself and it worked great-FOR that particular situation.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Ivan Beaver

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 12:25:25 pm »

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 08:13

The Danley is a horn loaded sub so if the horn is say 14 foot do i add a 14ft delay to the tops?

Leon

The length of the horn is not what is important.  But rather the phase of the differences in the signals.

As a general rule-the "delay" time for a tapped horn is somewhere between the physical length of the horn and the loudspeaker driver exit to the horn.

How much depends on what freq you are talking about-the phase.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Ivan Beaver

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 12:36:31 pm »

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 09:21

Also,

which is the best way to go.reverse polarity the subs,different people different views,well it depends on this depends on that,do you or dont you??????????

i read on here that the subs need to be reversed polaritied because of the magnet in TH115?????????

No point in buying a Ferrari then it runs like a scrapped car,

I ran the SM60 on a yamaha home cinema amp and it was awsome 60 watts.
In my live situation i put a FP3400 and it seems i have to thronk the living daylights out of it just to get it up there,also people who have watched us say it sounds muffled?????????

So if i am correct if the tops are not in phase with the subs then i get rhubarb sound or in simple terms a pile of bad sounding crap.

Leon




Whether you flip the polarity or not depends on how you are running the system and how it is setup.  If you are not going to worry about delaying or lining up the subs to the mains-then I would flip the polarity of the sub.  This will help the lows sum together, but will cause some ripples a bit higher in response.

If you align them properly, then generally you do not need to flip the polarity-but that depends on what freq you have the crossover at.

Again the alignment is only going to affect the freq around crossover and would have nothing to do with it sounding muffled.

If the cabinet sounds fine at home-but muffled at the live event-then I would look at something else in your system.  Main EQ, channel eq on the console, comp/limiter, microphones etc.

I have actually had a situation with some gear that flipping the polarity on the balanced lines really cleaned up the sound (sounded like the blanket had been taken off).  This is due to one of the pieces of gear not really being balanced (but had XLR's so I assumed Shocked  Embarassed it was balanced-oh the good 'ol days when a lot of gear was not really balanced-even top of the line pro gear Mad ).

The loudspeakers job is to simply try to reproduce what is coming into it as best as it can.  If the signal coming is "flawed", then the signal coming out will have that same
"flaw".

It is amazing to me how many times the loudspeakers get blamed-yet they are just doing their job and the real problem is elsewhere.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

leon garrity

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 12:46:59 pm »

Many thanks Ivan for your reply.....


ok lets run a scenario...... the L/R speakers are 25 ft apart in a small venue and the subs are  underneath the tops all speakers facing out.The Danley top boxes are around 2 feet set back flown on trussing 8 feet in the air.Now does the Sub from what i have explained need to be delayed to compensate for the top being 2 feet back or does the top Danley box need to be delayed to compensate for the time it takes the sound to go around the horn then out of the front of the TH115........

The Danley horn as i believe is roughly 9 and a half feet in length,so that would be if im thinking logicaly 9ms of delay but the top boxes are 2 feet behind the top boxes......

So is that a 7 ms delay on the tops or possibly a delay of 2ms on the subs if the length of horn has no bearing in sound,any phasing you know is bad for sound even if it is just around the crossover point......

all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....

Up to now i have had to replace 5 horns in one of the Danley SM60f,i work in a situation where a lot of singers and performers watch other acts,now when a few musiscians come up to you and say its muffled then i am bemused....

When you spec'd the output of the Danleys saying at the mid 120db range it was loud.....what amp was on it? wat slope of dsp.

Im puzzled,all cables made by Van Damme,Amps Lab Gruppen,musical source excellent,Danley boxes should equate to perfection but blown drivers and having to thronk a fp3400 and a fp6400 is not correct.......

Leon








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Ivan Beaver

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leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 12:46

Many thanks Ivan for your reply.....


ok lets run a scenario...... the L/R speakers are 25 ft apart in a small venue and the subs are  underneath the tops all speakers facing out.The Danley top boxes are around 2 feet set back flown on trussing 8 feet in the air.Now does the Sub from what i have explained need to be delayed to compensate for the top being 2 feet back or does the top Danley box need to be delayed to compensate for the time it takes the sound to go around the horn then out of the front of the TH115........

The Danley horn as i believe is roughly 9 and a half feet in length,so that would be if im thinking logicaly 9ms of delay but the top boxes are 2 feet behind the top boxes......

So is that a 7 ms delay on the tops or possibly a delay of 2ms on the subs if the length of horn has no bearing in sound,any phasing you know is bad for sound even if it is just around the crossover point......

all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....

Up to now i have had to replace 5 horns in one of the Danley SM60f,i work in a situation where a lot of singers and performers watch other acts,now when a few musiscians come up to you and say its muffled then i am bemused....

When you spec'd the output of the Danleys saying at the mid 120db range it was loud.....what amp was on it? wat slope of dsp.




If your SM60's are that high up, and behind the subs, and when you account for the depth of the SM60's you may find that you are already pretty well "aligned.  As I said in another post-it is not the total length of the Tapped horn that is the effective length-it is somewhere in the middle-depending on freq.

When you say 110dB, where is that measured at?  If you are 10M away-you will have lost 20dB due to distance-so the actual output of the box at 1M (what it is speced at) would be around 130dB.

Distance matters when talking SPL. 4 Meters away the level would be 12dB lower.

You say you have relaced 5 horns in one of the SM60.  What part of the horn driver was going bad-the mids or the highs?  Do you have the parts you have taken out.  Looking at how they failed can tell a lot about the problem-sometimes.

I would not keep shoving parts in, untill I found out what the real problem is.

Are those in the SAME SM60?  If so, then there might be a problem with the crossover in that box.  Have you contacted Danley-who did you talk to?  I have not heard anything about it.  That type of thing should come to me.

It also sounds as if you are simply trying to get to much sound out of those boxes.  There are limits to how loud they (and any box) can get.  Maybe you need more rig for the gig.

You say you are close to peaking out the amp.  The amp you are using is a good size-assuming you are not limiting/compressing the signal.

If you are compressing the signal, then the average power will be higher and that may be what is killing the drivers.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

leon garrity

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Hi its the same box that has failed  drivers its the hi driver the bms,after inspection it was a very tiny burn or break in the copper coil,maybe i have run them a little high but say if at the minute it was say an 800 watt amp on instead of the Fp3400 then it would be very quiet. i do mean quiet.

I love my danleys just trying to eradicate problems i have.

Leon.
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Art Welter

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Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 01:44:07 pm »

leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 10:46



all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....


The SM60 is about 96 dB one watt one meter so peak output should be 106 dB at10 watts, 116 dB with 100, and 126 dB at 1000 watts.
In your home cinima situattion, the room is probably small enough that there is not much level change anywhere in the room when measured with a dB meter, and with a pair, each driven with 60 watts, 110 should not be a problem.

In a larger room, or outside, level  sound drops 6 dB per doubling of distance. Your meter also may not catch the peaks, it could read another 6 dB lower than the theoretical output of 120 dB at  2 meters, 114 dB at 4 meters, 108 dB at 8 meters.

“110 dB” should be tops at 8 meters (26 feet), especially if read on the dBA scale.

If you are burning  drivers, you are using too much long term power, which means you must turn it down or get more speakers.
Four eight inch and a pair of 5” mid/1" high can only get so loud before they vaporize.

Sub alignment, as Ivan says, depends on the crossover frequency and other variables.

You want the phase of the subs to align to the phase of the low mids. If you look at your speaker's phase charts, you will see that varies with frequency.

Rather than going over sub alignment in detail, I’d suggest doing a search, the subject has been covered in the Lounge many times.
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