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Author Topic: LA 400 + SH-50  (Read 13207 times)

Helge A. Bentsen

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LA 400 + SH-50
« on: January 04, 2011, 12:14:52 pm »

I currently own four Danley SH-50, but no subwoofers. I've been offered 8 Eaw LA400 for a reasonable price, but I can't try them before I buy them (distance related ).

Have anybody tried using LA400 and SH-50s together?
Opinions?

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Silas Pradetto

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 12:32:08 pm »

If that's enough sub for your needs and you have the capability to align the SH50s to the horn subs, you will be fine.
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Art Welter

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 12:35:51 pm »

Helge A. Bentsen wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 10:14

I currently own four Danley SH-50, but no subwoofers. I've been offered 8 Eaw LA400 for a reasonable price, but I can't try them before I buy them (distance related ).

Have anybody tried using LA400 and SH-50s together?
Opinions?



I have not used the two together, but:

The LA400 can get loud, but does not go very deep, it is rated +/- 3dB 45 to 250, but is already 10 dB down at 40 Hz. In a block of 8, they will go lower, but not much.

The SH 50 is also 10 dB down at 40 Hz.

Unless you are just looking for more kick, you would be more happy with subs that can provide another octave below the top cabinet.
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Helge A. Bentsen

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 06:02:56 pm »

Thank you for your replies  Smile

I did a quick comparison between one LA400

http://eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Lou dspeakers/LA400/LA400_SPECS_rev1.pdf

and one SB1000

http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current _Loudspeakers/SB1000z/SB1000zR_SPECS_revB.pdf

I've rented and used four sb1000 with my sh-50s in the past, so I know how they perform together. To me it looks like the sb1000 is -3dB around 35hz and -10dB around 30hz, approx. 10 hz lower than the LA400.

I've never a/b-ed two subwoofers with a 10dB difference in -3dB-point.
How "big" an issue are those 10hz?

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 10:16:43 pm »

You will feel it.  You will hear it, too, but might not be able to describe what is different.  To a certain extent this is one of those "you have to hear it to understand" things.

FWIW, there is a visceral difference between the JBL 4880 and 4880A subs.  The specs show the -3 and -10db freqs of each to be within 2hz of each other, but there is a palpable difference between the way they sound/feel at the lowest half octave.  The difference might not seem obvious in the spec, but they are real.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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Art Welter

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 02:15:51 pm »

Helge A. Bentsen wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:02

Thank you for your replies  Smile

I did a quick comparison between one LA400

 http://eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Lou dspeakers/LA400/LA400_SPECS_rev1.pdf

and one SB1000

 http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current _Loudspeakers/SB1000z/SB1000zR_SPECS_revB.pdf

I've rented and used four sb1000 with my sh-50s in the past, so I know how they perform together. To me it looks like the sb1000 is -3dB around 35hz and -10dB around 30hz, approx. 10 hz lower than the LA400.

I've never a/b-ed two subwoofers with a 10dB difference in -3dB-point.
How "big" an issue are those 10hz?


The low E on a four string bass is a 40 Hz fundamental, the low B on a five string is about 32 Hz.
That is a four note spread, like the range in the first notes of the melody "Silent Night, Holy Night".

There is a big difference when you hear the fundamental, rather than just the harmonics (64,128 or 80, 160 etc.) of low notes.

Bass guitar usually is naturally lower output in the fundamental compared to the harmonics, but there are plenty of samples, drums and synth bass with lots of musical information down low.

You can do an experiment at (very) lower volumes to hear the difference using your SH 50, EQ them flat to 32, listen to some bass heavy tracks, then go back to no EQ (-10 at 40 Hz) and you will have your answer.

The type of music played will have a marked difference, most pop music before around 1985 has little below 50 Hz, but there are plenty of modern cuts with loads of stuff down low.

Listening to "Raising Sand", Robert Plant/Alison Krauss (produced by T-Bone Burnett) I was a bit surprised how much content it had down in the 20 Hz range, though it makes sense, since music mixed to be played at quieter levels needs more LF to sound "fat" than at higher levels.

The difference between 40 and 31.5 Hz is the same as between 12.5 and 16 K. Once you get used to extended LF, it seems as unnatural not to have it as it would to roll off above 12.5K at 24 dB per octave.
The reason we make the compromise down low is it is a lot less size, weight and expense to get the top octave than it is to add in the bottom octave (s).

The one question I have is since you put the big money in the top cabinets, why not get something by DSL that goes low, gets loud, is efficient, and sounds good ?

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Caleb Dick

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 06:43:38 pm »

Art Welter wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:15


The one question I have is since you put the big money in the top cabinets, why not get something by DSL that goes low, gets loud, is efficient, and sounds good ?



+1.  Those tops deserve some nice subs.  TH-118's, DBH-218's, etc.  
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Caleb Dick
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Helge A. Bentsen

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 07:46:34 pm »

Caleb Dick wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:43

Art Welter wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:15


The one question I have is since you put the big money in the top cabinets, why not get something by DSL that goes low, gets loud, is efficient, and sounds good ?



+1.  Those tops deserve some nice subs.  TH-118's, DBH-218's, etc.  



No particular reason. I just received a offer, couldn't make up my mind about it, and came here in search of a answer Smile

I have access this weekend to some Meyer 650-r2 (-4dB/35hz) and some QSC HPR181i (-3dB/45hz). I'll try to make a quick comparison between them, I ASSume I should be able to hear a difference in the low end of the scale.

And thank you again Smile
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Art Welter

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2011, 08:43:11 pm »

Helge A. Bentsen wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 17:46

Caleb Dick wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:43

Art Welter wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:15


The one question I have is since you put the big money in the top cabinets, why not get something by DSL that goes low, gets loud, is efficient, and sounds good ?



+1.  Those tops deserve some nice subs.  TH-118's, DBH-218's, etc.  



No particular reason. I just received a offer, couldn't make up my mind about it, and came here in search of a answer Smile

I have access this weekend to some Meyer 650-r2 (-4dB/35hz) and some QSC HPR181i (-3dB/45hz). I'll try to make a quick comparison between them, I ASSume I should be able to hear a difference in the low end of the scale.

And thank you again Smile

You will hear the difference, but the Meyer 650-r2 can't put out much level down low.
I have four small dual Lab 12 ported cabinets that put out more level around 40 Hz than eight Meyers 650P.
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Jeff Bailie

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 07:37:42 pm »

Art Welter wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 19:43

Helge A. Bentsen wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 17:46

Caleb Dick wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:43

Art Welter wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:15


The one question I have is since you put the big money in the top cabinets, why not get something by DSL that goes low, gets loud, is efficient, and sounds good ?



+1.  Those tops deserve some nice subs.  TH-118's, DBH-218's, etc.  



No particular reason. I just received a offer, couldn't make up my mind about it, and came here in search of a answer Smile

I have access this weekend to some Meyer 650-r2 (-4dB/35hz) and some QSC HPR181i (-3dB/45hz). I'll try to make a quick comparison between them, I ASSume I should be able to hear a difference in the low end of the scale.

And thank you again Smile

You will hear the difference, but the Meyer 650-r2 can't put out much level down low.
I have four small dual Lab 12 ported cabinets that put out more level around 40 Hz than eight Meyers 650P.

Or build some Labhorns for under those SH50's... It helps to elevate them off the ground. Plus your in the right place.  Surprised index.php/fa/34677/0/
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Helge A. Bentsen

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 06:13:46 am »

I've considered building some Labs, but for the cost of parts I'm close the same price as a new LA400. If I include labour, I can buy some TH-115 instead.

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Art Welter

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 04:00:03 pm »

Tim McCulloch wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:16

You will feel it.  You will hear it, too, but might not be able to describe what is different.  To a certain extent this is one of those "you have to hear it to understand" things.

FWIW, there is a visceral difference between the JBL 4880 and 4880A subs.  The specs show the -3 and -10db freqs of each to be within 2hz of each other, but there is a palpable difference between the way they sound/feel at the lowest half octave.  The difference might not seem obvious in the spec, but they are real.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc


The written specs are goofy, the graph shows the story.
index.php/fa/34715/0/
The far greater Xmax and power handling of the 2269 in the 4880A vs the 2258 in the 4880 means it can do a lot more heavy lifting.
The two are about the same at 60 Hz, the 2269 trades top for bottom.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2011, 01:07:55 pm »

Hi Art-

That's the graph I was looking for.  Where did you find it?

Very cool. Smile

Tim Mc
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Art Welter

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2011, 02:41:19 pm »

Tim McCulloch wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 11:07

Hi Art-

That's the graph I was looking for.  Where did you find it?

Very cool. Smile

Tim Mc

It is from JBL Technical Note Volume 1 Number 34,

 JBL_-_Tech_Note_Vol_1_No_34_Differential_Drive_for_VerTec_Su bwoofer_Applications.pdf

Happened to come across it in the Lansing Heritige website, I think it was mentioned that it is not on the regular JBL site.

The conclusion is fun:

index.php/fa/34756/0/


Art Welter
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 05:53:53 pm »

But what if the person wants both-Punch and depth?

I guess you can't have both. Rolling Eyes

Life's a bitch.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

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Jason Phair

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 06:45:09 pm »

Perhaps v.5 presets will have a 5-way setting with 4880A's in "infra" mode  Very Happy
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Jason Phair

Mark Lonow

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2011, 08:08:54 pm »

l acoustics  new subs r similar to the 2 jbl drivers

the sb18 has similar output as the 218

the sb218 goes lower  but requires ruffly 2x  power/speaker/weight/size/money


this is from the manual i have no smaart captuers to back this up
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Tim Padrick

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2011, 01:37:56 am »

Jeff Bailie wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 18:37

 index.php/fa/34677/0/


Why are they growing hair?

Ivan Beaver

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2011, 07:42:02 am »

Tim Padrick wrote on Thu, 27 January 2011 01:37

Jeff Bailie wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 18:37

 index.php/fa/34677/0/


Why are they growing hair?


There was this one gig-it was late at night-and dark-and somebody had a bit much to drink - and-weeellllll you know what happens Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

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dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Jeff Bailie

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 09:36:03 am »

Ivan Beaver wrote on Thu, 27 January 2011 06:42

Tim Padrick wrote on Thu, 27 January 2011 01:37

Jeff Bailie wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 18:37

 index.php/fa/34677/0/


Why are they growing hair?


There was this one gig-it was late at night-and dark-and somebody had a bit much to drink - and-weeellllll you know what happens Laughing  Laughing  Laughing


I have 6 with Fabric Fur, and 6 without.  People really enjoy the Furry ones more.  As soon as I have some cash on hand I'm going to Fur the other 6.

I know It seems funny to a lot of the Pros out there who only like to use there ears.  But I like to point out that Tony Andrews paints his cabinets Purple and Silver for another good reason that has nothing to do with sound.  *MONEY*
 The truth is, the furry ones make more money than the non-furry ones. Weird huh?

  I also think the aesthetics of the Sh50 is something to point out. It's beautiful to look at...  One of the reasons I purchased the Sh50s was because I could instantly see the true point source nature of the cabinet. To me the Sh50 is more pleasing to look at than any other speaker on the market.

  I also think it makes since to have all those speakers in the same horn. Something that in my opinion makes Tony Andrews sweet purple cabinets less sweet. I don't like how I can physically see the separate horns for the highs and mids. For some reason seeing separate sound sources makes me feel like I can hear separate sound sources.

Sorry for my rant.

Sound is not a part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Fabric Fur is. But it is questionable.      
 

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BooYaKahSha

Ivan Beaver

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Re: LA 400 + SH-50
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2011, 12:36:20 pm »

Jeff Bailie wrote on Fri, 28 January 2011 09:36

Ivan Beaver wrote on Thu, 27 January 2011 06:42

Tim Padrick wrote on Thu, 27 January 2011 01:37

Jeff Bailie wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 18:37

 index.php/fa/34677/0/


Why are they growing hair?


There was this one gig-it was late at night-and dark-and somebody had a bit much to drink - and-weeellllll you know what happens Laughing  Laughing  Laughing


I have 6 with Fabric Fur, and 6 without.  People really enjoy the Furry ones more.  As soon as I have some cash on hand I'm going to Fur the other 6.

I know It seems funny to a lot of the Pros out there who only like to use there ears.  But I like to point out that Tony Andrews paints his cabinets Purple and Silver for another good reason that has nothing to do with sound.  *MONEY*
 The truth is, the furry ones make more money than the non-furry ones. Weird huh?

  I also think the aesthetics of the Sh50 is something to point out. It's beautiful to look at...  One of the reasons I purchased the Sh50s was because I could instantly see the true point source nature of the cabinet. To me the Sh50 is more pleasing to look at than any other speaker on the market.

  I also think it makes since to have all those speakers in the same horn. Something that in my opinion makes Tony Andrews sweet purple cabinets less sweet. I don't like how I can physically see the separate horns for the highs and mids. For some reason seeing separate sound sources makes me feel like I can hear separate sound sources.

Sorry for my rant.

Sound is not a part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Fabric Fur is. But it is questionable.      
 



Well it makes you stand out and helps people remember you.

"Man, that guy with the fuzzy bass cabinets, his system is awsome!" type of thing.
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For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs
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