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Author Topic: Yamaha LS9 input gain  (Read 26271 times)

Corne Stapelberg

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 02:28:02 am »

Hallo Tim

Thx fotr the good info.  So just to sooth my mind ????
The desk was not reasponsible for the clipping sound.  If I Hit 0dBfs on the input that will be when the desk makes clipping sounds, not JUST above say -12dBfs.  It is the correct way to run the inputs at a peak of -18dBfs, but clipping will only be audible if you hit 0dBfs ??????

Am I understanding this correctly?

Regards
Corne'

"You are as good as your last show"
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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 07:29:33 am »

Those Behringer DI's overload easily - almost always need at least one of the pad switches turned on.

Plenty of analog devices overload with digital-sounding nasty distortion.

Corne Stapelberg

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 07:50:30 am »

Hallo Scott

Thx for reply.  I am also starting to think the DI was the weakest link in my signal chain.
Pitty they do not have an indication on them of inpt gain???

I am slowly starting to recall one or two previous cases with the same type of weard sound during two big outdoor shows with the same DI's, and at that stage I thought it could be a cable or something due to the much more involved setup, with multiple bands and up to 8 musicians on stage at a time. It was then more difficult to eliminate the culprit for that split second, but from the recording I made of the gig, it sounded if it was coming from the digital stage piano signal.

Regards
Corne'

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Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 11:16:23 am »

Very possibly a bad DI. But I have also had that distorted sound when an acoustic guitar with an internal preamp with a 9v battery that was going bad. I had one guy insist that he had just a week ago changed the battery. It turned out there was no on/off switch but was always on if the cord was plugged into the guitar and he had left it plugged in. He had to loosen the strings to get the battery out and didn’t want to but when he broke a string during sound check I talked him into checking the battery and it was very low. Changed the battery and no more distortion. But in your case I would lean toward that DI.
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Kevin Maxwell
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Rob Spence

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 10:43:32 pm »

Corne Stapelberg wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 02:28

Hallo Tim

Thx fotr the good info.  So just to sooth my mind ????
The desk was not reasponsible for the clipping sound.  If I Hit 0dBfs on the input that will be when the desk makes clipping sounds, not JUST above say -12dBfs.  It is the correct way to run the inputs at a peak of -18dBfs, but clipping will only be audible if you hit 0dBfs ??????

Am I understanding this correctly?

Regards
Corne'

"You are as good as your last show"

Yes, but understand that clipping in the digital world really sounds bad, not like the nice sound of analog clipping. You never want to clip in digital!
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Rob Spence
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 11:07:35 pm »

AT 0dBFS, you are out of everything, without exception, without headroom of any sort.  You *never* want to be there, and because all forms of input except sine waves have a crest factor, you need headroom.

If you're routinely hitting peak on an input, I suspect you have level reduction further downstream, either in a virtual or physical dynamics device, "gain reduction thru equalization", the system inputs are turned down or you just don't have Enough Rig for the Gig
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Michael J Brown

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 11:28:29 pm »

Tim McCulloch wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 22:07

AT 0dBFS, you are out of everything, without exception, without headroom of any sort.  You *never* want to be there, and because all forms of input except sine waves have a crest factor, you need headroom.

If you're routinely hitting peak on an input, I suspect you have level reduction further downstream, either in a virtual or physical dynamics device, "gain reduction thru equalization", the system inputs are turned down or you just don't have Enough Rig for the Gig
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Dan Richardson

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2010, 09:36:44 am »

Rob Spence wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 22:43


Yes, but understand that clipping in the digital world really sounds bad, not like the nice sound of analog clipping. You never want to clip in digital!


When's the last time you actually tested that? Sure, in the dawn of digital audio,
clipping would wrap the waveform around and you'd get a full amplitude square wave.
Very dramatic tearing sound as your drivers tried to be two places at once.
I haven't seen a piece of gear do that in over a decade.
Somewhere along the way, they seem to have mellowed the math.

Way back when, I talked Klondike into letting me use an 01V on a gig. Klon had me bring it out to the shop.
The first thing he did was plug in a 58 and a monitor speaker, spin the input gain full up, and bark into it.
Sounded like analog distortion. Shortly thereafter, he started buying digital consoles.
Sure, clipping is a bad thing, but digital clipping doesn't have to sound dramatically worse than transistor clipping.

I'd much rather listen to an LS9 clipping than a Behringer DI clipping.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2010, 10:35:04 am »

Dan Richardson wrote on Sat, 11 September 2010 09:36

Rob Spence wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 22:43


Yes, but understand that clipping in the digital world really sounds bad, not like the nice sound of analog clipping. You never want to clip in digital!


When's the last time you actually tested that? Sure, in the dawn of digital audio,
clipping would wrap the waveform around and you'd get a full amplitude square wave.
Very dramatic tearing sound as your drivers tried to be two places at once.
I haven't seen a piece of gear do that in over a decade.
Somewhere along the way, they seem to have mellowed the math.

Way back when, I talked Klondike into letting me use an 01V on a gig. Klon had me bring it out to the shop.
The first thing he did was plug in a 58 and a monitor speaker, spin the input gain full up, and bark into it.
Sounded like analog distortion. Shortly thereafter, he started buying digital consoles.
Sure, clipping is a bad thing, but digital clipping doesn't have to sound dramatically worse than transistor clipping.

I'd much rather listen to an LS9 clipping than a Behringer DI clipping.


Since the introduction of the PM1D at least, Yamaha has been designing their consoles so that the analog mic pre clips before the AD converter. You should have a hard time clipping the input digitally. It may be easier to clip the internal path at some point with too many gain stages. I assume that other responsible console manufacturers follow the same philosophy. This is not a theory I have felt the need to test. I'd rather keep the levels reasonable.

Mac
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Yamaha LS9 input gain
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2010, 10:55:42 am »

Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 11 September 2010 09:35



Since the introduction of the PM1D at least, Yamaha has been designing their consoles so that the analog mic pre clips before the AD converter. You should have a hard time clipping the input digitally. It may be easier to clip the internal path at some point with too many gain stages. I assume that other responsible console manufacturers follow the same philosophy. This is not a theory I have felt the need to test. I'd rather keep the levels reasonable.

Mac



It seems we are constantly re-fighting old (won) battles.

Digital word wrapping is just how digital math works. While it is pretty straightforward to prevent it at the original conversion it must also be managed at every gain stage and operation where signal streams are summed and the result could overflow. This is very old news to digital designers and not something the user should worry about.

A properly designed digital path should act just like a similar analog path in response to overload. With the exception that cleverly designed digital paths could tweak gain structure on the fly to correct some intermediate stage saturating.

JR

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