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Author Topic: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium  (Read 19083 times)

Gabe Nahshon

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 11:30:05 AM »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 02 June 2010 17:50

John Chiara wrote on Wed, 02 June 2010 16:39



My only experiences with this situation was BECAUSE of the UPS.





 So... You're saying that you've heard/experienced numerous failures of UPS systems?

 Really?  Confused

 Hammer

 
 

I've seen a show with 50K people go down because a UPS interpreted a frequency swing of .5 HZ as reason to go to battery power.  This was NOT a low budget production; this was a major international act.  The generator, FOH AC run, etc. were all of proper scale for a show this size.  If I recall 2/0 cam lock was run to FOH.    All our digital console systems now run one power supply off the UPS and one off of the main AC run.  Haven't had problems since, and it's a simple as placing a quad box in the power supply rack and a little bit of AC patching.

But the real question to me is this: How the hell am I supposed to hear a UPS beeping when I am staring down the barrel of 40 line array boxes and a bazillion subs, as well as 50 thousand screaming people?  Perhaps someone could make a buck by having a remote beacon (think blaze-on) that could warn the user with a flashing light that something was going on with the UPS.

My .02,

Gabe
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2010, 01:58:44 PM »

Gabe Nahshon wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 10:30


I've seen a show with 50K people go down because a UPS interpreted a frequency swing of .5 HZ as reason to go to battery power.  This was NOT a low budget production; this was a major international act.  The generator, FOH AC run, etc. were all of proper scale for a show this size.  If I recall 2/0 cam lock was run to FOH.    All our digital console systems now run one power supply off the UPS and one off of the main AC run.  Haven't had problems since, and it's a simple as placing a quad box in the power supply rack and a little bit of AC patching.

But the real question to me is this: How the hell am I supposed to hear a UPS beeping when I am staring down the barrel of 40 line array boxes and a bazillion subs, as well as 50 thousand screaming people?  Perhaps someone could make a buck by having a remote beacon (think blaze-on) that could warn the user with a flashing light that something was going on with the UPS.

My .02,

Gabe


  Hello Gabe,

 .5 Hz?  ... and how did you determine this?  I'm not questioning that the UPS went down...but, how did you determine that it was failure do to unstable frequency regulation?

BTW... The Electric Companies throughout the US do their best to maintain a 60Hz cycle...but most cannot guarantee a stability of +/- .5 Hz. They do have a way to "make up" the time if they slow down or speed up. It should not be a problem to any electrical/electronic equipment...except for Government/Military use.

  (I don't pretend to know their specs.)

  And...for your comment regarding not hearing the little beeper in most UPS.....it's another "you get what you pay for" situation. The better UPS systems have the ability to send outputs for other out-board monitoring or alarms. It is fairly easy to wire up a call beacon or horn as an alarm

 Any UPS systems need to be maintained and verified on a regular program in order to lessen the chance of failure. Batteries are probably the leading cause of failure.  

 And...I'd surely not expect much from a low cost UPS system ...especially risking an 80k console or an entire show.
 If you have a critical show...don't go cheap.

I'd also like to point out that some people have a common misconception that they'd expect some inexpensive UPS system to keep a device powered long after a line power failure... You'd to size the UPS for this result.

 I've never expected anything more from a UPS system than to give me enough time to properly trouble shoot, or to properly shut down the gear, until power can be restored.

 Good Luck,
 Hammer    

ps... as I've said before...all electrical/electronic equipment can and does fail... but, when it comes to UPS systems, I believe it's a matter of using the right equipment and having the proper maintanence to lessen those failures...  

 Hammer's done with this one.
 
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Paul Gillaspy

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2010, 03:31:04 PM »

Same thing happened in Phoenix. I went to see Iron Maiden a few days ago and during the Maiden portion of the show, no FOH for 30 seconds or so. Mixer was a Soundcraft Vi6.  
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Chuck Harrigan

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2010, 09:51:30 PM »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 13:58



 
   ...but most cannot guarantee a stability of +/- .5 Hz.
 


Recently I was given a tour of the main control center for a large power co in the region.  In the principle control room there were several readouts showing power use over time (graph,) power factor over time, power used, power generated, and a very large one for frequency.  The frequency meter read out 4 digits past the decimal place.  It was varying when i was there at around 4:00 between .003hz plus or minus.  Nearby there was a large recycling plant that used a 2 MW arc furnace to melt just about anything(steel copper Al)  That would switch on and off every 3-4 minutes.  This would affect the frequency by about .0005 Hz.  The person giving the tour said that the most the freq has deviated while he had worked there was .1 Hz and they were getting many nasty calls from nearby power cos about the wasted energy they were responsible for (as all power companies are connected to adjacent ones).  If a power co can't regulate their grid to within .01 Hz they have major problems.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 10:02:02 PM »

Chuck Harrigan wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 21:51

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 13:58



 
   ...but most cannot guarantee a stability of +/- .5 Hz.
 


Recently I was given a tour of the main control center for a large power co in the region.  In the principle control room there were several readouts showing power use over time (graph,) power factor over time, power used, power generated, and a very large one for frequency.  The frequency meter read out 4 digits past the decimal place.  It was varying when i was there at around 4:00 between .003hz plus or minus.  Nearby there was a large recycling plant that used a 2 MW arc furnace to melt just about anything(steel copper Al)  That would switch on and off every 3-4 minutes.  This would affect the frequency by about .0005 Hz.  The person giving the tour said that the most the freq has deviated while he had worked there was .1 Hz and they were getting many nasty calls from nearby power cos about the wasted energy they were responsible for (as all power companies are connected to adjacent ones).  If a power co can't regulate their grid to within .01 Hz they have major problems.

My first job out of college was with Duke Power Com.  I worked in the communications dept (microwave-telephone-data-2 way radio etc).  I remember walking through on of the power plants and the freq meter was a LARGE (think close to 2' dia) analog meter (this was years ago Laughing ).  The scale was from 59Hz-61Hz and covered 180
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2010, 11:18:33 PM »

Chuck Harrigan wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 20:51



Recently I was given a tour of the main control center for a large power co in the region.  In the principle control room there were several readouts showing power use over time (graph,) power factor over time, power used, power generated, and a very large one for frequency.  The frequency meter read out 4 digits past the decimal place.  It was varying when i was there at around 4:00 between .003hz plus or minus.  Nearby there was a large recycling plant that used a 2 MW arc furnace to melt just about anything(steel copper Al)  That would switch on and off every 3-4 minutes.  This would affect the frequency by about .0005 Hz.  The person giving the tour said that the most the freq has deviated while he had worked there was .1 Hz and they were getting many nasty calls from nearby power cos about the wasted energy they were responsible for (as all power companies are connected to adjacent ones).  If a power co can't regulate their grid to within .01 Hz they have major problems.


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/484488/31535/0/ //361/#msg_484488

This is an interesting thread about forensic storage and comparisons of minor mains frequency variations to fingerprint specific time signatures from speed variations in motors in tape recorders and things synchronized to mains frequency.  

JR
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2010, 12:19:26 AM »

  Of course some parts of the Country are graced with newer power plants which feature state of the art equipment... including regulation.

 "Time error corrections start and end on either the hour or the half hour." (3600 x 60Hz) or (1800 x 60Hz)

 It seems they do time/frequency averaging based on an hour or half hour period. They either speed up or slow down to fit their 60Hz criteria

 Instantaneous Frequency measurements may or may not mean anything.

 Hammer

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2010, 02:22:29 AM »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 11:58

Gabe Nahshon wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 10:30

I've seen a show with 50K people go down because a UPS interpreted a frequency swing of .5 HZ as reason to go to battery power.  This was NOT a low budget production; this was a major international act.  The generator, FOH AC run, etc. were all of proper scale for a show this size.

BTW... The Electric Companies throughout the US do their best to maintain a 60Hz cycle...but most cannot guarantee a stability of +/- .5 Hz. They do have a way to "make up" the time if they slow down or speed up. It should not be a problem to any electrical/electronic equipment...except for Government/Military use.

Ummm... You did catch that he was talking about a generator, right?  Rolling Eyes
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Chris Hinds

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Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2010, 09:52:12 AM »

Otis Oney wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 02:52

So back to Bon Jovi....

Is David still using his XL4 or did he finally move to a XL8?


At the O2 on Saturday FOH was an XL4 still with a PM5d for the support act.

Regards

Chris

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Bon Jovi Giants Stadium
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2010, 09:52:12 AM »


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