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[Bob Burke]

  Hello all. I was hoping that some of you experienced sound guys could help me.

  Last Saturday night we played a “ballroom” at a local VFW hall. Rectangular room, cinder block walls, stage set in the middle of one of the long walls with a huge mirror covering the facing wall! Needless to say, it was an audio nightmare. We only have a small SOS system, S115V's powered by a QSC PLX1804. I knew that pointing the mains directly at the opposite wall would be a disaster, so I opted for aiming them inward. It didn't help much.

  Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effect of all of this sound bouncing off of hard surfaces? We will probably have to play this place again, and I would like to get better sound.


Thanks.


Bob

[bruce gering]

  Hello all. I was hoping that some of you experienced sound guys could help me.

  Last Saturday night we played a “ballroom” at a local VFW hall. Rectangular room, cinder block walls, stage set in the middle of one of the long walls with a huge mirror covering the facing wall! Needless to say, it was an audio nightmare. We only have a small SOS system, S115V's powered by a QSC PLX1804. I knew that pointing the mains directly at the opposite wall would be a disaster, so I opted for aiming them inward. It didn't help much.

  Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effect of all of this sound bouncing off of hard surfaces? We will probably have to play this place again, and I would like to get better sound.


Thanks.


Bob

2 words: Pipe and Drape.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

  Hello all. I was hoping that some of you experienced sound guys could help me.

  Last Saturday night we played a “ballroom” at a local VFW hall. Rectangular room, cinder block walls, stage set in the middle of one of the long walls with a huge mirror covering the facing wall! Needless to say, it was an audio nightmare. We only have a small SOS system, S115V's powered by a QSC PLX1804. I knew that pointing the mains directly at the opposite wall would be a disaster, so I opted for aiming them inward. It didn't help much.

  Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effect of all of this sound bouncing off of hard surfaces? We will probably have to play this place again, and I would like to get better sound.


Thanks.


Bob

I played those places for over 30 years.  So my advice to you is this:

Have fun, take the money, don't worry.

You can also make sure your amps are as close to you as possible and as low volume as can be.  Tilt back stands are your friends.  Don't point the amps at the audience.  Vocals only in the PA.

[Bob Burke]

Thanks for responding. I've got to look into getting some tilters for my stands. We use backing tracks, so vocals only isn't possible.

  Maybe I'll try Bob Leonard's method of placing the mains behind the band. The weirdest thing was that the bounced sound actually made the tracks sound off-key. Never had that happen before.

[Tim McCulloch]

  Hello all. I was hoping that some of you experienced sound guys could help me.

  Last Saturday night we played a “ballroom” at a local VFW hall. Rectangular room, cinder block walls, stage set in the middle of one of the long walls with a huge mirror covering the facing wall! Needless to say, it was an audio nightmare. We only have a small SOS system, S115V's powered by a QSC PLX1804. I knew that pointing the mains directly at the opposite wall would be a disaster, so I opted for aiming them inward. It didn't help much.

  Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effect of all of this sound bouncing off of hard surfaces? We will probably have to play this place again, and I would like to get better sound.

Thanks.

Bob

Fixing a room requires some heavy-duty EQ.  The best correction is applied with the D-9 Room EQ.


Failing that, Dick and Bruce offer good advice... I see you use tracks and understand the slap off the opposite wall is the problem.  First, find something like the Balanced Tilter® made by forum contributor Nimrod Webber.  Pricey but an exceptional piece of construction.  K-M also makes an angled piece for their speaker stands.  The idea is to give your speakers a 10° or so downward tilt to get the sound down on the absorptive people and not the hard wall or ceiling.

Some kind of absorptive material on the opposite wall will help.  The suggestion of pipe & drape is a good one, but make sure to rent velour drape, not the "banjo cloth" used for trade show booths.  You don't need to cover the entire wall, but at least the part this receives direct sound from your speakers.

Dick also mentions aiming your amps... he's referring to guitar or keyboard amps.  The idea is the same as PA speakers.. you don't want them aimed at the wall, nor do you really want them aimed at the back of your legs (unless your ears have moved there).

The overall plan is to "excite" the room as little as possible by keeping the acoustic energy aimed at the people who need/want to hear the music.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Jay Barracato]

  First, find something like the Balanced Tilter® made by forum contributor Nimrod Webber.  Pricey but an exceptional piece of construction.  K-M also makes an angled piece for their speaker stands.  The idea is to give your speakers a 10° or so downward tilt to get the sound down on the absorptive people and not the hard wall or ceiling.

People are great for dispersing the sound. Getting the mains high and pointed down is my first checkmark for a small room. I have the balanced tilters and love them.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

People are great for dispersing the sound.

It's a VFW.  Try having them give free beer to all women over 200 pounds.  Seat them in front of the mirror......

[Jordan Wolf]

Dick also mentions aiming your amps... he's referring to guitar or keyboard amps.  The idea is the same as PA speakers.. you don't want them aimed at the wall, nor do you really want them aimed at the back of your legs (unless your ears have moved there).

The OP might want to check out these.  Tilting separate head and cabinet models is another issue, since people like the look of them sitting one top of each other "as they should be".

Try cross-firing the amps from the sides of the stage.  That can help reduce the monitoring levels needed by the group as a whole while keeping the stage wash from contaminating the FOH mix too much.

It has been my experience that [many] guitarists bring amps that are too powerful for the size gigs they normally play OR don't know how to keep their levels under control when using a larger amp (the power's there, why not use it, right?).

EDIT: New forum feature!  I was just warned to re-check the thread because someone posted while I was replying...definitely a great feature!

[Bob Burke]

Thanks for the link Jordan. That looks like a great piece of gear. I use the old standard amp stand now. I'll have to try one of those Standbacks.

  We don't normally have a problem with stage volume. I use an acoustic/electric through a little Peavey Classic 30  and my wife plays through a Fender Bassman 250/210, and we only push 600 watts through the mains. I try to keep the FOH volume down to around 90dB (hence the name of our duo).

  I'll try firing the amps from the sides and see if that helps.
 

[Todd Huffines]

I love it when playing in a room like you describe and someone walks up to me and asks me to turn back the reverb.  I have a piece of tape on the lights on my power conditioner.  I let them turn the light sockets and adjust to their taste. 

Its entertaining to say the least.

[jabney (john abney)]

  Hello all. I was hoping that some of you experienced sound guys could help me.

  Last Saturday night we played a “ballroom” at a local VFW hall. Rectangular room, cinder block walls, stage set in the middle of one of the long walls with a huge mirror covering the facing wall! Needless to say, it was an audio nightmare. ...

As far as a sound wave is concerned, there shouldn't be a big difference between bouncing off a mirror and bouncing off a hard painted concrete-block wall (at least at the frequencies a typical VFW-hall patron can still hear).

The Peavey Classic 30 and the Fender Bassmans I've heard are big sounding amps. Pointing them toward you from the sides of the stage should help (you'll probably want to mic' them).

Treating the wall behind the stage with a heavy fabric hanging or such may help more than you might think. Plus, you can advertise the band on it.

Subwoofers could allow you to turn down the overall volume, while still sounding louder.

Pointing the mains outwards a little might help more than pointing them inwards.

'Ringing out' the room when nobody is there would let you try different configurations.

best,

john

[Noah D Mitchell]

It's a VFW.  Try having them give free beer to all women over 200 pounds.  Seat them in front of the mirror......

Comment of the day award! You win 100 internets!

[Bob Leonard]

Thanks for responding. I've got to look into getting some tilters for my stands. We use backing tracks, so vocals only isn't possible.

  Maybe I'll try Bob Leonard's method of placing the mains behind the band. The weirdest thing was that the bounced sound actually made the tracks sound off-key. Never had that happen before.

Bob,
Doing that will put all of the sound behind you and in this instance you might find it to be a more enjoyable experience. We have a club that we like to play on occasion and the room is pretty much exactly the same. Huge mirrors on a wall 40' in front of us. We also experience the out of tune phenom as well. The cure was tilting the amps, smaller amps, and aiming FOH outwards towards the outside edges of the giant slap your face mirror. After doing that we were told we had found the best mix ever heard in that particular club. Anyway, if you do try this be sure the FOH cabinets are as far to the outside of the stage as possible. Try it at home in the basement, and if it works there go for it.
 
Good luck.     

[Bob Burke]

  Thanks Bob. I didn't have much time to ring out the system, and I found myself having to decide whether to aim the mains in or out. Of course, I chose the wrong direction! I will try pointing them outward next time.

  The out of tune phenom was weird, though. I'm used to the natural reverb from sound bouncing off of a wall, but this was the verb and out of tune as well. Never experienced that before. Makes it challenging to sing in tune.
 

  I tried to access the PM's you sent me on the old forum so I could remember how you do the rear main thingy, but I guess it's finally closed.


Regards,


Bob

[Bob Burke]

As far as a sound wave is concerned, there shouldn't be a big difference between bouncing off a mirror and bouncing off a hard painted concrete-block wall (at least at the frequencies a typical VFW-hall patron can still hear).

The Peavey Classic 30 and the Fender Bassmans I've heard are big sounding amps. Pointing them toward you from the sides of the stage should help (you'll probably want to mic' them).

Treating the wall behind the stage with a heavy fabric hanging or such may help more than you might think. Plus, you can advertise the band on it.

Subwoofers could allow you to turn down the overall volume, while still sounding louder.

Pointing the mains outwards a little might help more than pointing them inwards.

'Ringing out' the room when nobody is there would let you try different configurations.

best,

john

  Thanks John. We are going to reposition the amps the next time we play there. I have subs on the wish list, but paying gigs are getting scarce these days, and so is bread. I'm a bit leery of putting the bass through these little S115V's.



Regards,


Bob

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