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[Jay Michael Tetz]

Greetings all. Im Requiring some advice on building or buying some mid bass subs to complement the system I already own. Currently I am using 4, RCF 4PRO 4001-A 3-way tops
http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=55475
and 4, RCF 4pro 8001-A subs.
 http://www.rcf.it/en_US/web/rcf/products/pro-speaker-systems /4pro-series/4pro-8001-as
I manage the system with a dbx driverack 260.

My system gets used regularly for 3 different music "scenes" within the city I live in, each having their own unique style of music. One being breaks and dubstep, which my system sounds really nice for, another being more of a progressive house/trance scene.... big fat round kick drums and smooth funky bass lines in the 125-132 bpm range, which my system also handles nicely. The third is a psychedelic trance scene to which im finding my system doesnt really handle that well.  The reason being is the music starts in the 138 bpm range and can go as high as 160 bpm. Also this music has a very unique feature in which the kick drums are typically very hollow and flat sounding, not the kind of kick you feel in the chest, its more just a clack noise with no weight behind it. Instead the weight comes from a double, triple or even quadruple time bass line that lingers in the frequency range where you typically hear your kick drum, perhaps 80 to 150 hz. So the music is basically driven by a fast punchy bassline with a barely audible kickdrum keeping the time. Here is an example of a tyipcal psytrance track, click on track 7 or 8 within this link
 http://www.saikosounds.com/english/display_release.asp?id=77 78

I know that the big psytrance festivals in europe use systems that are composed of mostly 12 inch drivers as they are better suited for creating the hard hitting, pumping fast bass lines.... where 18's are just not fast enough. Since this music makes up a large portion of my business Im looking to add some 12" or perhaps 15" mid bass units to my system to get better coverage with this music where my system is currently lacking. Im looking for something that will be tight and crisp with some real in the chest thump, nothing boomy... Ive got my 8001's to cover the real low stuff.  Ideally I would like to buy something self powered but I haven't really stumbled across something that fits this bill within a reasonable price range so im considering building passive cabinets. Im also working on somewhat of a budget. I am also admittedly not super knowledgeable when it comes to this, I know my system well enough to know its strengths and limitations.

So yeah, here is my challenge that Im hoping someone can help me with. A dual 12 or 15 inch cabinet. I'm thinking front loaded would be preferable as the rest of my gear is front loaded. Something that can produce super tight, fast pumping midrange type bass lines. Anybody have any suggestions? Many thanks.

[Paul O'Brien]

OK first off the notion that 18" subs aren't "fast enough" to produce sharp kick bass is simply wrong, you have the tools here I suspect you're just not employing them correctly.

What crossover frequency are you using for this setup and this type mucic?
Have you time alligned your subs and mains?

[Art Welter]

A pair of bass guitar 4x10" from Eden or Hartke would probably fill the bill at a decent price, disconnect the tweeter and any internal xover parts.

You could also easily build a 4x10" or 4x12" to match up in size with your cabinets, for the mid-bass range porting is not really needed, sealed gives the tightest response.

Eminence Delta 10 or Delta 12 are a good sounding, economical choice. The 12s give you 1 dB more output and go a little lower, the 10s sound a little better in the mid bass.

[Jay Michael Tetz]

Paul, Thanks for your response. For this music my high pass filter for my tops is set with a lr24 slope somewhere between 88 and 100 hz... Low pass filter for my subs set also on a lr24 slope bwtweeen 90 to 77 hz, high pass filter a bw18 slope between 38 and 45 hz.  Within these ranges I will tweak until i get the best results. I try not to overlap the cut off frequencies at all. If I could somehow squeeze more definition in my mid bass freq ranges from my existing system I would be super impressed. For most other styles of music I love the way this system sounds, rich thumping bass, lots of definition and high smooth clear mid's and highs....
Regardless I'm hankering for some more horse power, im figuring some mid bass cabinets would cover the spectrum that my system seems to lack in. Many thanks for your time

[Duncan McLennan]

RCF makes a dedicated midbass box in the 4PRO range, half of the 7001A system.  It's rated for output from 50-200Hz, and should fit between the subs and tops going from maybe 70-160Hz.

[Pascal Pincosy]

Paul O'Brien wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 08:44

OK first off the notion that 18" subs aren't "fast enough" to produce sharp kick bass is simply wrong, you have the tools here I suspect you're just not employing them correctly. What crossover frequency are you using for this setup and this type mucic? Have you time alligned your subs and mains?

+1

I think you would be better off spending money on getting someone trained in measurement and loudspeaker alignment to measure, align and tune the system you already own. I think you would be surprised how much more performance you can squeeze out of a system that has been properly aligned and tuned.

[Jay Michael Tetz]

Pascal, thanks for the reply. Im wondering if you could elaborate on what the procedure would be to measure, align and tune the system. I ask because I would have figured that because the system is "out of the box" from RCF that time alignment and tuning would not be much an issue. Like I mentioned before, I am not trained or educated on such things.... just learning as I go. Thanks

[Pascal Pincosy]

Well thats a pretty tall order there. Given that we're discussing powered tops and subs there's not a lot that you should need to do, but proper alignment between the tops and subs will help a lot. There are 2 ways you could go about aligning your system:

1) Hire a professional

2) Purchase SMAART or another FFT measurement system including a mixer and a mic, spend a ton of time reading the tutorials in Study Hall, practice, take the measurements, study more, take the measurements again. Rinse lather and repeat until satisfied.

Hiring a professional would get you to your optimum point immediately, where as doing it yourself will be far more educational, but also more time-consuming and expensive.

Once you get to the point where you've got it dialed, and you still think you need mid-bass, I'd suggest looking at the porn-horn or similar DIY. Getting these built and aligned with your current system will be a huge undertaking.

All that being said, I do tons of electronic music shows and I also manage sound for the largest nightclub in San Francisco. In my experience Psytrance doesn't need a ton of mid-bass, but House does. What trance does want is lots of bass, though not super low as you mention. You might want to look into replacing your 8001's with a box better suited to electronica ie tons of output in all the frequencies needed...

[Jay Michael Tetz]

Rock on Pascal, thanks for the advice. Looks like I have some homework to do... You sound like you have lots of experience dealing with the same types of music that I deal with. Just for curiosity sake, do you have some suggestions of subs that may be better suited for what I am doing... And why would they be better suited than the 8001's. I was actually feeling I had made a great choice with the 8001's as they were quite a nice punchy 18 compared to most that I had heard. I had never really entertained the thought of thinking that they were not ideally suited for what I was doing. Thanks again