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Author Topic: EQing Aviom System  (Read 12006 times)

Kevin Wilson

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EQing Aviom System
« on: March 03, 2011, 01:39:27 PM »

Perhaps someone could give me some direction.

Our setup is:

Mackie SR 32.4.2 board
Aviom AN 16/i input module
Aviom 16D PRO Distribution Center

Currently we are coming out of each channel inserts and into the module - then out of the module via A-NET cable to the Distribution Center on the platform.

Dilemma: We want to be able to run each channel individually through an EQ before sending it to the platform.

All inquiries say to come out of an Aux Send - but that only allows 1 channel to be sent to the EQ. 

Either I route each channel differently through the board - or find an EQ which has A-NET input/out capability (if that exists).


Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Kevin 
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Kevin Wilson

Mike Spitzer

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 02:08:27 PM »

I don't see that routing will help you on that board. It's not very flexible. You pretty much have two options that I see:

1 - Buy a bunch of 3-band eqs and run each channel through them. Expect $60-$100 per channel at the low end.

2 - Buy a separate mixing console that supports post-eq direct outs. You're probably looking at $2k+ for that, at which point you should start considering other main consoles.

Why do they need an eq on each channel?

-mS
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Kevin Wilson

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2011, 02:14:36 PM »

Why do they need an eq on each channel?

-mS

The complaint has been the sound quality in-ear.  Im assuming that in order to keep the freedom for each musician to have control over their own individual mix - that we would need to EQ channels separately.

The only alternative I can see is to run groups of channels through a Bus or an Aux send as suggested.  Maybe that is the best approach - but doesn't that eliminate the freedom for individual mixes ont he platform? 
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Kevin Wilson

Mac Kerr

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2011, 02:19:22 PM »

Perhaps someone could give me some direction.

Our setup is:

Mackie SR 32.4.2 board
Aviom AN 16/i input module
Aviom 16D PRO Distribution Center

Currently we are coming out of each channel inserts and into the module - then out of the module via A-NET cable to the Distribution Center on the platform.

Dilemma: We want to be able to run each channel individually through an EQ before sending it to the platform.

All inquiries say to come out of an Aux Send - but that only allows 1 channel to be sent to the EQ. 

Either I route each channel differently through the board - or find an EQ which has A-NET input/out capability (if that exists).


Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Kevin

Am I missing something? Wouldn't you just come out of the insert, into the eq, out of the eq into the Aviom? You need to insert the eq in the analog domain, and that would be before the Aviom.

You could probably have another console for less money than all those eqs.

If each musician needs to individually eq each mic in his mix, you don't want Aviom. That would be an actual use for SAC.

If each musician wants to eq his overall mix individually you need a stereo eq between the headphone output and his ears.

Mac
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Kevin Wilson

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2011, 02:27:47 PM »

Am I missing something? Wouldn't you just come out of the insert, into the eq, out of the eq into the Aviom? You need to insert the eq in the analog domain, and that would be before the Aviom.

You could probably have another console for less money than all those eqs.

If each musician needs to individually eq each mic in his mix, you don't want Aviom. That would be an actual use for SAC.

If each musician wants to eq his overall mix individually you need a stereo eq between the headphone output and his ears.

Mac

This is probably more my inability to explain this.

Each musician isnt asking to individually control the EQ for each channel.  They are simply asking for some EQ in their IEM's.  Since 'Im new to this - I'm trying to figure out how to route the EQ into the Avioms various channels without purchasing a separate EQ for each one.

We have 16 inputs going into the Aviom.  But the EQ only has 1-2 inputs.  So how do I take 16 separate inserts and put them into the EQ - then out of the EQ into 16 inputs on the Aviom?

I apologize for not making much sense in this.
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Kevin Wilson

Mike Spitzer

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2011, 02:40:45 PM »

If you do a post-eq direct out, you end up with the same eq in the IEMs as in the house, which usually isn't what's wanted, so you really don't gain anything there. The only real option is to have a separate eq mix for each channel, which means a monitor console or a lot of individual eqs.

There may be other ways of handling sound quality, though. What exactly are they complaining about? Distorted, muddy, etc?

Edit: Sorry; just read your last point. Being able to EQ the headphones isn't likely to help much. It can be done with an in-line single channel eq that each pair of headphones plugs in to, but I wouldn't expect much or any improvement.

-mS
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 02:47:46 PM by Mike Spitzer »
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Kevin Wilson

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2011, 02:47:55 PM »

I understand; it's just not something that's usually done. If you do a post-eq direct out, you end up with the same eq in the IEMs as in the house, which usually isn't what's wanted, so you really don't gain anything there. The only real option is to have a separate eq mix for each channel, which means a monitor console or a lot of individual eqs.

There may be other ways of handling sound quality, though. What exactly are they complaining about? Distorted, muddy, etc?

-mS

Currently we have no EQ at all in the IEM's.  Is that normal?

Your "post EQ direct out" point sounds like what Im talking about.  How would I do that with my current mixer?

Or maybe a better way since that isnt normally done?
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Kevin Wilson

Michael Galica

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2011, 02:54:27 PM »

So basically muso's are saying the IEMs don't sound good, right?

There's a lot of things that could cause this.  Do you have a fairly drastic house EQ setting?  Do you have to do a lot of EQ on individual channels to make it sound good in the house?  What earbuds are they using?  What mics are you using.  Since your "outs" are pre-nearlyeverything, the IEMs will be getting the raw sound from the mics and preamps, which leads me to think that a good deal of the blame is on either the source itself (namely that the musicians aren't as good as they think they are) or the microphone/pickup/DI.

If you want to be a little more devious about it, and if you have an extra FX unit, the right reverb can cover a multitude of sins.  This has good and bad points, of course.
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Mike Galica

Mike Spitzer

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2011, 02:58:01 PM »

Currently we have no EQ at all in the IEM's.  Is that normal?

Your "post EQ direct out" point sounds like what Im talking about.  How would I do that with my current mixer?

Or maybe a better way since that isnt normally done?

That is normal. I've never EQ'd IEMs. Normally, when people complain about their in-ear mixes it's because they're trying to do too much with it. Assuming your worship leader sings and plays guitar. He'll typically only really need his voice, his guitar, some drums and maybe some keyboard. When you try to do a full house mix into in-ears, they tend to get muddy and distracting, creating a lot of problems. By prioritizing what you're listening to, the sound will clear up.

As for the post-eq direct out, your board can't do that without possibly some very creative solder work. For that, you'd probably start looking at other large-format mixing consoles that can do post-eq, pre-fade direct outs, like the A&H GLs which have jumpers to control that kind of thing.

-mS
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Mac Kerr

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2011, 03:02:10 PM »

This is probably more my inability to explain this.

Each musician isnt asking to individually control the EQ for each channel.  They are simply asking for some EQ in their IEM's.  Since 'Im new to this - I'm trying to figure out how to route the EQ into the Avioms various channels without purchasing a separate EQ for each one.

We have 16 inputs going into the Aviom.  But the EQ only has 1-2 inputs.  So how do I take 16 separate inserts and put them into the EQ - then out of the EQ into 16 inputs on the Aviom?

I apologize for not making much sense in this.

In that case you don't need to eq the 16 inputs to the Aviom, you need a stereo eq for the outputs of each musician's mixer. There is not much on the market that I am aware of, although both Radio Shack and Koss have a 3 band eq for headphones. They are probably the same guts in different boxes, but they're cheap and they may do what you want.

Mac
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Kevin Wilson

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2011, 03:03:09 PM »

That is normal. I've never EQ'd IEMs. Normally, when people complain about their in-ear mixes it's because they're trying to do too much with it. Assuming your worship leader sings and plays guitar. He'll typically only really need his voice, his guitar, some drums and maybe some keyboard. When you try to do a full house mix into in-ears, they tend to get muddy and distracting, creating a lot of problems. By prioritizing what you're listening to, the sound will clear up.

As for the post-eq direct out, your board can't do that without possibly some very creative solder work. For that, you'd probably start looking at other large-format mixing consoles that can do post-eq, pre-fade direct outs, like the A&H GLs which have jumpers to control that kind of thing.

-mS

OK - that all makes sense and answers my main question.  Thanks Mike.

I have heard other people complain about the IEM's sounding cheap - lacking warmth - etc.  I assumed they were speaking of an EQ problem... but guess that isnt the issue. 
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Kevin Wilson

Kevin Wilson

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2011, 03:04:04 PM »

In that case you don't need to eq the 16 inputs to the Aviom, you need a stereo eq for the outputs of each musician's mixer. There is not much on the market that I am aware of, although both Radio Shack and Koss have a 3 band eq for headphones. They are probably the same guts in different boxes, but they're cheap and they may do what you want.

Mac

Ok - that makes sense as well.  Thank you Mac for the input.
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Kevin Wilson

Mac Kerr

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2011, 03:09:28 PM »

I have heard other people complain about the IEM's sounding cheap - lacking warmth - etc.  I assumed they were speaking of an EQ problem... but guess that isnt the issue.

What are they using for their transducers? Maybe they are cheap and thin sounding. Maybe they are not inserted into their ears properly. Not getting them fully inserted will almost always make them sound cheap and thin. There needs to be a very tight seal between the ear and the buds. If there is any leakage there will be reduced bass response.

Mac
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Mike Spitzer

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2011, 03:11:50 PM »

I have heard other people complain about the IEM's sounding cheap - lacking warmth - etc.  I assumed they were speaking of an EQ problem... but guess that isnt the issue.

I've used the Avioms quite a bit (on the mixer side) and the response from worship teams has been mostly good. There's an initial adjustment because they are a lot different. The main thing I've found that makes a difference is, like I said, listening to only what you really need. I've also been in places that mic the sanctuary and pipe those mics into the IEM mix, but I've never done that.

As for lacking warmth, or what have you, the headphones/earbuds you're using can make a huge difference. Cheap earbuds sound cheap, no matter what kind of eq you use on them. One thing you might try is to take a good pair of headphones and plug them into the monitor on stage and test that. It could be that the mix sounds fine there and they need to listen through something else.

Edit: What Mac said. =)

-mS
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George Dougherty

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2011, 01:25:57 PM »

Currently we have no EQ at all in the IEM's.  Is that normal?

Your "post EQ direct out" point sounds like what Im talking about.  How would I do that with my current mixer?

Or maybe a better way since that isnt normally done?

Depending on the signal flow of the board, taking a post EQ insert point and using one of the loop/split cables may accomplish what you're after.  Ideally, with a good sounding house system, anything you'd need to do EQ wise to fix and better blend a channel in the house mix should help contribute to clarity and better blending within an IEM mix.

+1 on headphones make a big difference too.  We started with Sennheiser IE4's which are quite nice for an inexpensive IEM device.  A few users have lost theirs and opted to purchase a retail replacement from Wallyworld.  Their results are not quite as good, though everything needs a good seal as Mac mentioned.  Switching from silicone to Comply Foam tips on the Sennheisers produced a noticeable difference in bass quality and realized output.
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Eric Hermle

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2011, 11:09:44 PM »

Perhaps someone could give me some direction.

Our setup is:

Mackie SR 32.4.2 board
Aviom AN 16/i input module
Aviom 16D PRO Distribution Center

Currently we are coming out of each channel inserts and into the module - then out of the module via A-NET cable to the Distribution Center on the platform.

Dilemma: We want to be able to run each channel individually through an EQ before sending it to the platform.

All inquiries say to come out of an Aux Send - but that only allows 1 channel to be sent to the EQ. 

Either I route each channel differently through the board - or find an EQ which has A-NET input/out capability (if that exists).


Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Kevin

Kevin,
  I didn't notice it listed, what are you using for the individuals on stage to mix with?  Avioms A-16II or A-16CS?  I've been using the A-16II control while playing drums using Beyerdynamics DT770M headphones and I must say, they have excellent sound.  The control surfaces have global bass and treble and if you want mid range emphasis, just cut both the highs and lows.  Why are you're players/singers wanting to eq the avioms?  Are they just wanting that "hi-fi" sound they have at home or in their car?  Or is intelligibility the problem.  Are they spreading the various channels out in the mix?  I have my lead singer and rhythm guitarist center and just right of center, my kick drum hard right, bass guitar hard left and every thing else spread out left or right in between those.  It really helped with the clarity.  If you aren't doing that, you might suggest to give it a try.

Hope you have success,
Eric
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Brad Weber

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Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 08:32:40 AM »

I have heard other people complain about the IEM's sounding cheap - lacking warmth - etc.  I assumed they were speaking of an EQ problem... but guess that isnt the issue.
It can also be an issue of expectations with their expecting to hear what they would in the audience with the rest of the system and the room involved versus hearing direct 'dry' input signals.  One option would be to include a house send and/or an ambient mic in the audience area as available sources to the Aviom system.

Some personal monitor systems such as MyMix and the Roland M-48 do have some output EQ at the controllers.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: EQing Aviom System
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 08:32:40 AM »


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