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Author Topic: How you mic up a "cajon"????  (Read 10870 times)

David Bedrack

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How you mic up a "cajon"????
« on: December 05, 2008, 11:10:18 AM »

"..... and we play bass, keyboards  and cajon with two cymbals"

GULP....  and.....WTH ...... is a "Cajon"??



I ran a google search  and found everything about it and how Paco'e Luzia introduced it to the spanish flamenco back in the 70's ,etc.

I allways thought those were just wood boxes where the flamenco handclappers sat and played with theyr hands here and there without realizing that they were a rather "complex and versatile " instrument, developed by the african slaves in Peru.


Fine so far.

But, how  shall I mic that thing and what  microphone will be best suited, I still have no clue.

Still have a week to go and figure out how to handle that thing. Your kind help will be greatly appreciated.

The player, BTW is a fine drummer and percussionist I know very well.

david b.



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Gabe Nahshon

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2008, 11:30:11 AM »

With the latin bands I've worked with, most want, believe it or not, an sm58 on a short desk stand.  I've also used an m88 which obviously has a little more thump.  It's a wood box with a hole in the back that, when thumped with the hand, makes a kick drum like sound (just the thud part, not the click).

Gabe
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Rick Stansby

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2008, 11:36:38 AM »

Gabe Nahshon wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 08:30

With the latin bands I've worked with, most want, believe it or not, an sm58 on a short desk stand.  I've also used an m88 which obviously has a little more thump.  It's a wood box with a hole in the back that, when thumped with the hand, makes a kick drum like sound (just the thud part, not the click).

Gabe


We use a kick drum mic by the hole and a 57 in front.  I just think of it as a kick and a snare.  The front head gives slap, and the hole gives thump.

P.S. We've done sound a couple times for a wonderful band called Locura from the bay area.  Their Cajon player brings a D6 for the hole and a 57 (IIRC) for the front.  It sounds amazing.  When you get that thing really thumping she gets a big smile on her face.  Some other bands have just asked for a 57 or 58 (by the hole or in the hole like a tuba) but I get the feeling they are just asking for what they know, and they haven't had a lot of experience with different mics.
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Rick Stansby

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2008, 11:44:37 AM »

David Bedrack wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 08:10

"..... and we play bass, keyboards  and cajon with two cymbals"

GULP....  and.....WTH ...... is a "Cajon"??



I ran a google search  and found everything about it and how Paco'e Luzia introduced it to the spanish flamenco back in the 70's ,etc.

I allways thought those were just wood boxes where the flamenco handclappers sat and played with theyr hands here and there without realizing that they were a rather "complex and versatile " instrument, developed by the african slaves in Peru.


Fine so far.

But, how  shall I mic that thing and what  microphone will be best suited, I still have no clue.

Still have a week to go and figure out how to handle that thing. Your kind help will be greatly appreciated.

The player, BTW is a fine drummer and percussionist I know very well.

david b.





Try to resist the urge to make the obligatory joke along the lines of "Look at the cajones (sp?) on that percusionist".  They never seem to find that one to be very funny.
Laughing
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Rick

David Bedrack

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 11:51:06 AM »

Thanks guys, toda Gabe.

It is not something that will not let me sleep  at night, but , well, even at my advanced age there are still a few things to learn.


Cajones..... go figure.... Confused NOT "cojones", of course!!


David

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Andrew (A.J.) McGlynn

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 12:00:03 PM »

I was at a show last month where they had one and I talked to the girl who played it after and asked how they had it miked cause it sounded amazing. She said they had a beta91 in it. Which made since to me. You get the low end kick sound but will also get the higher end as well. I haven't actually tried it but it did sound really nice.
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charles clark

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 12:11:45 PM »

I have used a kick mic on the hole and an SM57 up front with good results also.
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Mark Meagher

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 12:16:19 PM »

A.J. McGlynn wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 12:00

I was at a show last month where they had one and I talked to the girl who played it after and asked how they had it miked cause it sounded amazing. She said they had a beta91 in it. Which made since to me. You get the low end kick sound but will also get the higher end as well. I haven't actually tried it but it did sound really nice.


Yes, Beta 91 inside on the floor always. Select another mic of choice for the hole to add dimension. AT AE2500 works really well in the hole with the Beta 91 on the floor.

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Evan Kirkendall

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 12:49:32 PM »

I normally do a D6 at the hole, and an SM91 inside of the drum.





Evan
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Dave Unger

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 01:31:00 PM »

The search function is your friend:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/367967/473/?srch =cajon#msg_367967
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eric (e.t.) torgerson

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 06:53:21 PM »

+4 for the sm-91 inside. I first ran into 1 of these a few yrs ago w/ Jonny Langs drummer. The 91 was the obvious choice (cuz I had a few in the mic case) but I now wish I would've had a 57 or something on top too. It's a cool instrumnet which capable of quite a few sounds.
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 07:21:13 PM »

Dave Unger wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 13:31

The search function is your friend:

 http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/367967/473/?srch =cajon#msg_367967


Hmm, that would explain the feeling of d
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Miguel Castro Rios

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2008, 08:19:20 PM »

Take a look at my web page.. Once you skip the intro you will see the main page, I have several pics. like a slide show.. one of them is behind the stage. And you will see a drummer sitting on top of the cajon as a seat, to play the drums...

I believe this is the cajon from el Peru. I believe some other countries have other types of cajon...

WWW.riosystem.com.mx

I believed we used a sm57.

Sorry the web page is in Spanish, we are working the English part...

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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2008, 09:17:36 PM »

How you mic a cajon depends on several factors.

1) What kind of cajon? Is it a bass cajon you sit on, a Cuban Havana style rumba cajon (tumbador, tres dos, quinto) that stands upright like a conga and you play the top surface, a Peruvian cajon with a snare in it, or some other type?

2) What sound do you want? Is it a rhythm or solo instrument for just playing cajones, like rumba, or to accompany guitar and other instruments, or do you want it to sound like a kick drum and snare?

If you can give us some more details, it would help us make a better recommendation for what mic(s) to use.
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Andy Peters

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2008, 11:58:04 PM »

George Friedman-Jimenez wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 19:17

How you mic a cajon depends on several factors.

1) What kind of cajon? Is it a bass cajon you sit on, a Cuban Havana style rumba cajon (tumbador, tres dos, quinto) that stands upright like a conga and you play the top surface, a Peruvian cajon with a snare in it, or some other type?

2) What sound do you want? Is it a rhythm or solo instrument for just playing cajones, like rumba, or to accompany guitar and other instruments, or do you want it to sound like a kick drum and snare?

If you can give us some more details, it would help us make a better recommendation for what mic(s) to use.


I suspect that there isn't much call for cajons in Israel, which is where David lives. And the players may not know the subtle differences between the different types.

Hopefully they know that the word is pronounced kah-hohn and not kah-joan!

-a, from where we get Mexican cajons all the time
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David Bedrack

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2008, 12:28:14 AM »

 Dear Friedman-Jimenez  & Peters:


Darbukas are not the only percussion instrument here, so "cajones" might well be within the assortment of instruments in the sets of our local percussionists.

I lived 11 years in Chile  and my spanish is perfect, so I know how to pronounce "Cajon" without a bit of gringo accent Surprised) Cubans  might call it " cahom"

We have here world class  musicians , percussion players included, so I guess that they know the difference between a cajon tumbador and plain cajon for oranges  

Now, I still have no clue what music those dudes wil be playing and wether the cajon will be just for rhythm or will have a more up front role. The player, who is a fine drummer (also sings- grrrr), might use the instrument in a full expressive mode.

Whatever happens, it might be an interesting experience a bit beyond the regular stuff I  regularly handle. I think the last really challenging thing I did in the past was a duo of rennaissance (sp) players with lots of period instruments.

And now comes this cajon Rolling Eyes


Thanks to all for their advise- will be back next week to tell how it went, with pix and full sound track

david b.






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Mike Caldwell

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2008, 12:31:19 PM »

At least a couple times a year I'll get a Cajon come through. Over time I have used a D6, 421, D4 and a PZM in them. My least favorite was the 421. They all have been the style where the player sits on them. They can sound better than many bass drums I have had the pleasure in micing up.

Mike Caldwell

Bob Kenton

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2008, 11:48:46 PM »

I was just at a large out reach today and used a D6 near the hole and a 57 on the front close to where the drummer slapped the face. Sounded very good, lots of thump from that little box in the subs.
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Mike Dixon

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2008, 12:30:05 AM »

I've also used a SM/Beta91 inside and your percussion mic of choice on the outside, but I've placed it on the front (about a foot off) so that you can get some of the "hand" sound.  It sounded great.
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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2008, 10:53:45 PM »

Last night we played an AfroCuban rumba de cajones with bass, second, and quinto cajones (3 players) plus one conga to the side of each cajon. The audience was about 150 people (about 50 standing) in a room that normally holds about 100 and the console was at the rear of the room. The PA was set up mainly for the vocals but I put SM57s on the cajones. I didn't need the mics on the cajones at all, I turned the faders down on the cajon mics and kept just the vocals on the PA. It was plenty loud and I got lots of complements on the sound. The key was highly disciplined and talented AfroCuban drummers who knew how to play cajon and knew about dynamics and not playing over the singers. There were no other instruments in that set. With other instruments (bass, piano, cowbell, claves, guiro, tres guitar, flute, trombone) later on, I just turned up the cajon mic faders a little and it sounded fine. The SM57s sound good on most hand percussion instruments, including congas, bongo, bata, as well as cajon. This is for AfroCuban rumba cajones built from Home Depot plywood, I don't have any experience with Peruvian or Spanish cajones, or with commercial cajones where you are trying to emulate a kick/snare sound.
You might try calling up the cajon players and asking them what kind of mics they have liked to use in the past for a venue the size you are working.
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Dan Brown

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Re: How you mic up a "cajon"????
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2008, 11:16:41 PM »

David Bedrack wrote on Fri, 05 December 2008 10:10

"..... and we play bass, keyboards  and cajon with two cymbals"

GULP....  and.....WTH ...... is a "Cajon"??



I ran a google search  and found everything about it and how Paco'e Luzia introduced it to the spanish flamenco back in the 70's ,etc.

I allways thought those were just wood boxes where the flamenco handclappers sat and played with theyr hands here and there without realizing that they were a rather "complex and versatile " instrument, developed by the african slaves in Peru.


Fine so far.

But, how  shall I mic that thing and what  microphone will be best suited, I still have no clue.

Still have a week to go and figure out how to handle that thing. Your kind help will be greatly appreciated.

The player, BTW is a fine drummer and percussionist I know very well.

david b.






I personally like to use a condensor(my favorite is a Senn. ME64/K6) on the front and a Beyer M88/M69 in the back hole.

I do not like the sound of a "kick mic" in the back.  It is just to hyped.

The Perc player I normally work with has "snares" on the inside of his so this is usually slightly different.

HTH

db
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David Bedrack

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Re: Yidishe cajon
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 05:18:20 PM »

 So the gig is over. It was a high  quality performance. The musicians were good pros, so I didn't have to bother with mic technique or stuff like that.


The cajon was made by someone in Jerusalem and  seemed to be well built. The player had a high hat and two other cymbals, one thin crash and the other ride crash. I miced the cajon with a 451E on the front to capture the snare sound and a plain 58 at the back, not looking into the hole. It sounded crisp and fat.

Good and interesting music, good players, not a single glitch in the sound- I cannot ask for more.

The pic was taken during sound check/last rehearsal, when phone calls were  still alllowed Confused

Thanks to all for the good advice.

index.php/fa/19607/0/


David B.
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