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Author Topic: 2" Horns....  (Read 7264 times)

Nick Enright

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2" Horns....
« on: November 18, 2008, 11:24:35 am »

I have 4 old EAW cabs that perfectly fit one of my (independant) venues.

Two are fully loaded. the HF section (3way) is a DAS K8 on a JBl 2380 (90x40), the other boxes have 2385 (60x40) horns but no drivers... (There are other issues but for the sake of this discussion its not an issue.)

I'm going to be using the 2380 horns to cover the front area of the audience, while the 2385 will be aimed to handle the back areas.

I'm doing some maintenance to these right now and would like some reccommendations on where to go with the drivers for these. The venue is outdoors and the system is installed in early may, and remains until after Nov. 1.

I'd like to use all the same 4 drivers, the plan is to bridge a single RMX1450 into each side. (or run parallel mono) IE Each amp rack can either drive one cabinet or two. (one on each side of the stage.)

impedance, power handling, sensitivity are not impossible issues.

The cabinets are copies of the EAW MH102. There is a compression loaded TAD 12" in the mids, I've been crossing over to the HF section around 2k, once I purchase SMAART I'll obviously know more. I tried x-over at lower freq and didn't think the vocal was really crisp enough, I think this is due to the compression plug being homemade and not quite right.
(though TAD says the response of the 12 is good to 3k.)


Thanks.
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Lyve Productions
Live Sound Support / Engineering
House Sound @
 -- Hastings Street Ballroom - Detroit, MI
 -- Theatre Bizarre - Detroit, MI
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Jeff Babcock

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 12:09:11 pm »

Nick Enright wrote on Tue, 18 November 2008 11:24



I have 4 old EAW cabs .....

The cabinets are copies of the EAW MH102. ...the compression plug being homemade and not quite right.



First off, the fact that they are someone's homemade copies of MH102's is reason to be a bit suspicious and not treat these exactly as you would the MH102. The MH102 were high output horn loaded array boxes that did not go very low in the LF.  I would carefully compare the internals of these boxes against the specs of the real MH102 if you can find them.  Just because someone says it is a copy doesn't mean it will perform just like the real thing.

If you are replacing all 4 drivers and they don't have to mate with other boxes then just pick a decent HF driver and process to taste.  They just won't be very MH102ish anymore.

Art Welter

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 12:25:26 pm »

I have not actually heard the DAS K8, but it looks decent on paper. Is there some reason you don’t want to pick up another pair?

With an efficient 2” on those horns above a single 12”, to maximize headroom and fidelity, I would think you would want to cross more in the 1200 HZ range, especially if you have phase plug issues in the mids.

To give flat on axis response, the horn driver combo will need a rather large reduction in the 1-4K range, which you may be trying to do by moving the crossover higher. The CD (constant directivity) horn compensation curve was typically around a 10dB lift at 16K from the midband, and the driver also needs mid attenuation, as do most compression drivers.

You are better off doing this with mid cuts and a small lift in the top end, which will result in more similar levels for the mid and high output.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 12:37:53 pm »

Art Welter wrote on Tue, 18 November 2008 11:25

I have not actually heard the DAS K8, but it looks decent on paper. Is there some reason you don’t want to pick up another pair?

With an efficient 2” on those horns above a single 12”, to maximize headroom and fidelity, I would think you would want to cross more in the 1200 HZ range, especially if you have phase plug issues in the mids.

To give flat on axis response, the horn driver combo will need a rather large reduction in the 1-4K range, which you may be trying to do by moving the crossover higher. The CD (constant directivity) horn compensation curve was typically around a 10dB lift at 16K from the midband, and the driver also needs mid attenuation, as do most compression drivers.

You are better off doing this with mid cuts and a small lift in the top end, which will result in more similar levels for the mid and high output.



 Hello Nick,

   These were the Boxes we talked about a few months ago? The Thunder/Johnny MO, built boxes?  

I agree with Art and would follow his advice. You'll get them to sound really nice. But... while the boxes are open, check all seams to be certain they're not coming loose.

Cheers,
Hammer

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Nick Enright

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Re: 2" Horns.... (long)
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2008, 05:37:18 pm »

Yeah, These are the old Thunder boxes.....

More of the story:

These were built as a single 3-way cab, about the size of a short industrial freezer.... ~500-600lbs each. The MH102 section was built attached to a BH550. As described by the builder, these were originally loaded with all TAD drivers.

I have two pair of boxes, one set loaded, one set with only the 12's (which was a buying point, I now own 4 TAD 12" speakers that would probably e-bay quite well. Or go into a really sweet monitor rig, etc.....)

The BH550 sections in my loaded boxes currently have JBL 2225's. I'm not sure I like the drivers, but need to do some calcs using the dimensions of these boxes, not using datasheets from EAW; to see what modern 15 would work better. If there is one. I'd love to hear TAD's but dont think I should even look into buying 8 15's...

I'd like to drop the K8's because I am using 2450 diaphrams in them and would prefer a (again with this theme) more modern (parts friendly) driver.

I plan on re-working all the cabs this winter so that I endup with 4 BH550ish boxes and 4 MH102ish boxes. This would include reinforcement/checking of all seams, building fly hardware (yes I am an Engineer, and know a couple PE's to have it checked.) for them, repaint, and general maintenance.

Obviously they will need tons of tuning, at least I think that a good work over with software and etc will really help. about a year ago I downloaded the trial copy of SMAART and once I had dialed the appropriate delays they jumped right out.

The Venue owner and Designer love these speakers, the large format horns fit with their vision, they have no desire to use modern boxes. I do need to find an efficient subwoofer to go with them, the BH550 clones tend to unload at ~60-65Hz. I'm thinking 4x LabSub's or TH115's per side would really cover me from 30-70.

this puts X-over points @70, 250, (1.2)2.2 in a quad processed system. With the right setup in the processor I think that they'll sound really nice.

The venue is:

www.theatrebizarre.com

Obviously not your average Theatre!

Thanks for the help, any other info will be greatly appreciated.
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Lyve Productions
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House Sound @
 -- Hastings Street Ballroom - Detroit, MI
 -- Theatre Bizarre - Detroit, MI
Owner / Engineer

Nick Enright

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 02:51:19 pm »

Quote:

"just pick a decent HF driver and process to taste."


My question is: "What are a few decent, not ridiculously expensive, nice sounding 2" compression drivers, suited to being driven using a single 1450 for each pair of drivers, either in bridge mono mode, or in parallel mono mode (~400w pk each driver), that fits with the published response of the JBL2380 and 2385 horns?"



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Lyve Productions
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House Sound @
 -- Hastings Street Ballroom - Detroit, MI
 -- Theatre Bizarre - Detroit, MI
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Charlie Tappa

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 04:02:09 pm »

PM Sent!


Charles Tappa

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Pro Sound Service Inc.

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781-849-1285

Exclusive B&C USA Parts Distributor

ATM Flyware Stocking distributor.

sales@prosoundservice.com

www.prosoundservice.com

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Peter Jan

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 05:40:11 pm »

Nick Enright wrote on Wed, 19 November 2008 20:51



My question is: "What are a few decent, not ridiculously expensive, nice sounding 2" compression drivers, suited to being driven using a single 1450 for each pair of drivers, either in bridge mono mode, or in parallel mono mode (~400w pk each driver), that fits with the published response of the JBL2380 and 2385 horns?"




B&C DE-85 or DE-85TN are good sounding drivers with a nice price tag.

Personally I would look for some second hand JBL 2241/2245/2446/2450 drivers. If you look around a bit, they can be had for very decent prices. Last week I scored two 2245's for less than 200$ a piece. I think it's hard to find decent new drivers of any brand for that price. As for replacement parts availability, a 2450 diaphragm is interchangeable between them. The 2241 driver with a 2450 diaphragm has the nicest sounding highs of them all, not a big difference, but obvious if you compare side-by-side with 2245/46/50's.
Why JBL drivers ? Not because it's the same brand as the horns, but because they are still the better sounding drivers ( to me anyway ), they can take a lot of abuse. They keep a clean sound from zero till the end of what they can take powerwise and that feature is why I like them so much.
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Jeff Babcock

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 02:03:41 pm »

Maybe a bit on the expensive side, but BMS 4592ND would be killer.  It can goes both lower and higher than a regular 2" since it is a coaxial dual element design.

There are lots of other options.  B&C makes some good drivers that would work fine.  Charlie Tappa probably already gave you some good suggestions there.

Andy Peters

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Re: 2" Horns....
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 02:12:17 pm »

Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 20 November 2008 12:03

Maybe a bit on the expensive side, but BMS 4592ND would be killer.  It can goes both lower and higher than a regular 2" since it is a coaxial dual element design.


+100 for the BMS.

Save a few bucks and get the non-neo version, the 4590P.

-a
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