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Author Topic: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists  (Read 6076 times)

shadhall

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voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« on: January 07, 2011, 06:02:01 pm »

hi,

i see that we have new forums. change is good. kudos to the people who put forth the effort, energy and time!

hopefully, i'm not the first member to post on the new forums, because i'm not one of those people who like to try and be "first!" as they always shout out on news posts. lol

  • technical:
    pitch correction (devices)...how important is it to have in 8-10 vocalist group?
  • approach to the arts:
    on occasion, the youth worship team (8~10) has guest vocalists (1~2) that always sing flat. the "just turn off their mic" suggestion has been mentioned to me, but i somewhat disagree with this drastic approach. on the topic of technicality, i agree 100%. however, once i was a backup guitarist (finger style) in a 10-member worship team (different church) where the sound man didn't like me and later, i found out that he only pretended to turn up my guitar when he said otherwise, which i surmised as i still wasn't able to hear myself after the adjustment. i burned out after 18months of frustration and quit. so for the topic of the heart, i can't so easily "just turn off their mic". in our particular situation (worship...at church...to god), it's about the heart of the person; however, in my opinion, this is true...until it begins to negatively affect and hinder the atmosphere. thus far, i have been able to simply adjust their vocal levels to an appropriate level.
  • pitch correction efx, software:
    tc helicon has voiceWorks with pitch correction, but one vocalist at a time. as the lead singer has been professionally trained, is it possible to use her voice input as a rubric and have pitch correction for everyone else WithOut creating harmony efx, etc.? (i don't mean this question to be related to voiceWorks.) would this be only done through software? could this be done without having to have voiceworks for every single musician? secondly and equally important, one time there was a guest duet that performed. one could sing, the other had a difficult time staying on pitch and thus messed both of them up. it was sad. i would like to be able to set one of the vocal inputs as lead and pitch control for the other person in a scenario like this should (when) it arrives again.

maybe i'm just putting way too much into this topic.

what's your thoughts?
thanks
shad hall
:D

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Shad Hall
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Roseville Community Church - Mackie 808-S

"The more I learn, the more I realize there is to know."

Scott Helmke

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 12:28:27 pm »

The difficulty is that these pitch correction units are really built to work on one voice at a time.  Maybe if you could get everybody to sing off-key by the exact same amount...  ;)  Otherwise no. 

Also it will depend heavily on how the singers are mic'ed - if they're all singing up close into their own hand-held mics you could correct individuals, but if there's much leakage at all you'll end up hearing nearby singers leaking through and coming out the processor out of tune anyway.
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Ned Ward

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 02:06:27 pm »

hi,

i see that we have new forums. change is good. kudos to the people who put forth the effort, energy and time!

hopefully, i'm not the first member to post on the new forums, because i'm not one of those people who like to try and be "first!" as they always shout out on news posts. lol

  • technical:
    pitch correction (devices)...how important is it to have in 8-10 vocalist group?
  • approach to the arts:
    on occasion, the youth worship team (8~10) has guest vocalists (1~2) that always sing flat. the "just turn off their mic" suggestion has been mentioned to me, but i somewhat disagree with this drastic approach. on the topic of technicality, i agree 100%. however, once i was a backup guitarist (finger style) in a 10-member worship team (different church) where the sound man didn't like me and later, i found out that he only pretended to turn up my guitar when he said otherwise, which i surmised as i still wasn't able to hear myself after the adjustment. i burned out after 18months of frustration and quit. so for the topic of the heart, i can't so easily "just turn off their mic". in our particular situation (worship...at church...to god), it's about the heart of the person; however, in my opinion, this is true...until it begins to negatively affect and hinder the atmosphere. thus far, i have been able to simply adjust their vocal levels to an appropriate level.
  • pitch correction efx, software:
    tc helicon has voiceWorks with pitch correction, but one vocalist at a time. as the lead singer has been professionally trained, is it possible to use her voice input as a rubric and have pitch correction for everyone else WithOut creating harmony efx, etc.? (i don't mean this question to be related to voiceWorks.) would this be only done through software? could this be done without having to have voiceworks for every single musician? secondly and equally important, one time there was a guest duet that performed. one could sing, the other had a difficult time staying on pitch and thus messed both of them up. it was sad. i would like to be able to set one of the vocal inputs as lead and pitch control for the other person in a scenario like this should (when) it arrives again.

maybe i'm just putting way too much into this topic.

what's your thoughts?
thanks
shad hall
:D



Hello and welcome!

Please go into your Profile and change your name to your full name, per forum rules.
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 09:19:54 pm »

hi,

i see that we have new forums. change is good. kudos to the people who put forth the effort, energy and time!

hopefully, i'm not the first member to post on the new forums, because i'm not one of those people who like to try and be "first!" as they always shout out on news posts. lol

  • technical:
    pitch correction (devices)...how important is it to have in 8-10 vocalist group?
  • approach to the arts:
    on occasion, the youth worship team (8~10) has guest vocalists (1~2) that always sing flat. the "just turn off their mic" suggestion has been mentioned to me, but i somewhat disagree with this drastic approach. on the topic of technicality, i agree 100%. however, once i was a backup guitarist (finger style) in a 10-member worship team (different church) where the sound man didn't like me and later, i found out that he only pretended to turn up my guitar when he said otherwise, which i surmised as i still wasn't able to hear myself after the adjustment. i burned out after 18months of frustration and quit. so for the topic of the heart, i can't so easily "just turn off their mic". in our particular situation (worship...at church...to god), it's about the heart of the person; however, in my opinion, this is true...until it begins to negatively affect and hinder the atmosphere. thus far, i have been able to simply adjust their vocal levels to an appropriate level.
  • pitch correction efx, software:
    tc helicon has voiceWorks with pitch correction, but one vocalist at a time. as the lead singer has been professionally trained, is it possible to use her voice input as a rubric and have pitch correction for everyone else WithOut creating harmony efx, etc.? (i don't mean this question to be related to voiceWorks.) would this be only done through software? could this be done without having to have voiceworks for every single musician? secondly and equally important, one time there was a guest duet that performed. one could sing, the other had a difficult time staying on pitch and thus messed both of them up. it was sad. i would like to be able to set one of the vocal inputs as lead and pitch control for the other person in a scenario like this should (when) it arrives again.

maybe i'm just putting way too much into this topic.

what's your thoughts?
thanks
shad hall
:D
Ned,
While I could not agree with you more that worship is a matter of the heart. I do not agree that just because of that you have to be able to hear someone. Let's look at it like this. What is your job? Make it sound good and minimize distractions. What are distractions?feedback, volume (too loud or too soft) microphones being on when need be and off when not. Would you continue to keep the guitar up if it was drastically out of tune? Or an instrument if they were out of time? So why a vocalist? Who leads the group? What do they have to say? There is nothing more distracting to me than vocals that are OFF! I turned someone WAY down this morning as a matter of fact. Not off but to a point were the distraction went away. Are these people auditioned? If so Who approves them? Not everyone has the gift of being on a microphone. Some people have the gift of being greeters, children's workers, and ushers. These are all very important jobs!
Now to the technical side.
As said in another post your gonna need separate devices for each person not only that but probably 2 channels as well! Why? Unless your aux sends are post insert. You need to send the " dry vocal" to the wedge and the effected vocal the house so the person can't here it or you'll be doing more harm than good.
All in all for me if they don't rehearse it and have it they don't sing it. And ultimately at my church if they can't sing on key they can't sing. We don't lead people on we just let them know there are other places they should serve. And yes I have been a part of several but my momma told me I have a beautiful voice arguments. YOUR MOMMA LIED TO YOU!!!
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bigTlamb

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Kent Thompson

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 12:16:13 am »

To add to what the others have said. Even with an expensive pitch correcting device you can hear it working, cheaper ones more so. Which means you need to spend a lot on one to get one with minimal side effects. I too have turned down people and instruments that are out of tune. In fact I have been instructed to do so. I bet if you had a talk and asked your worship director what to do about it they would most likely say turn them down. You should ask so that if someone says something when you do you can defer to an authority on the matter.
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Ned Ward

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 10:17:41 am »

Ned,
While I could not agree with you more that worship is a matter of the heart.
Thomas - I think you misread my post - you quoted the original poster instead of mine, but didn't include my post which was I was just telling the OP he needs to post with his FULL NAME, not some aggregation or nickname. Rules are rules. As for rest of the discussion, I don't have a horse in this race.

So again,

Hello and welcome!

Please go into your Profile and change your name to your full name, per forum rules. Please refer to this link
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html
on the rules for this forum and please follow them.

thanks.
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 03:56:50 pm »

Thomas - I think you misread my post - you quoted the original poster instead of mine, but didn't include my post which was I was just telling the OP he needs to post with his FULL NAME, not some aggregation or nickname. Rules are rules. As for rest of the discussion, I don't have a horse in this race.

So again,

Hello and welcome
Ummmmm ya my bad you get the point. Ill get used to the whole quoting thing. Did I quote it right this time?
T

Please go into your Profile and change your name to your full name, per forum rules. Please refer to this link
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html
on the rules for this forum and please follow them.

thanks.
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bigTlamb

"If you suck on a functional analog desk, you'll really suck on a complex digital desk...." Dick Rees

Thomas Lamb

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 03:58:56 pm »

Dude I've messed up the quoting thing again. I'll get used to it! Sorry!
T
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bigTlamb

"If you suck on a functional analog desk, you'll really suck on a complex digital desk...." Dick Rees

Ned Ward

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 11:04:57 pm »

No worries. thanks.
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Brad Weber

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Re: voice: pitch control for 8~10 vocalists
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 10:26:57 am »

I think Scott and Thomas addressed the technical aspects and there are probably a number of different perspectives on the spiritual and ethical aspects.  I personally would view using pitch correction on someone's voice without their or the congregation being aware of it as not really being much different than taking them out of the mix, in fact even perhaps a bit more deceptive.  But that's just my view.  I do think that a decision needs to be made by church leadership as to the importance of the effect on the performances and the direction to take when someone's wanting to serve and their ability to serve in the desired way conflict.
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