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Author Topic: Treating large rooms  (Read 4475 times)

Randy Pence

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 03:51:25 pm »

Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 16:24

I can't stress strongly enough that treatment of any kind should be done by a licensed professional. Think of the results of the Great White fire in Rhode Island. If you're trying to be helpful, don't. If you're looking for a cheap way out, there isn't one.


Do you drive on roads featuring only professional drivers?  Do licensed drivers make mistakes?

I understand and appreciate your concerns, but the great white disaster was not caused by fiberglass.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 06:18:24 pm »

Randy Pence wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 15:51

Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 16:24

I can't stress strongly enough that treatment of any kind should be done by a licensed professional. Think of the results of the Great White fire in Rhode Island. If you're trying to be helpful, don't. If you're looking for a cheap way out, there isn't one.


Do you drive on roads featuring only professional drivers?  Do licensed drivers make mistakes?

I understand and appreciate your concerns, but the great white disaster was not caused by fiberglass.



There's a big difference in putting treatment, foam or rugs into a building inhabited and used by people who place their fate in someone elses hands, and my statement has nothing to do with fiberglass.

When I drive I place my fate into my own hands. If you ride with me and tell me to slow down I'll listen. The laws concerning fire safety in this state are the toughest in the USA, and for good reason, so when you read replies concerning the use of foam or other products without a cautionary statement then it's time to slow down.

Now if you feel that you could treat the room or provide guidence on treating the room be my guest. However, I suggest that you call the BE from Great White, or the club owners from RI. The BE just got out of jail and he should be available, and the owner who approved the treatment should be out within the next few years. Unfortunately none of the 100 people who died in the fire are available for comment, but according to your logic that really doesn't matter anyway.  
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The roar of the grease paint, the smell of the crowd.

Dick Rees

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2008, 06:32:24 pm »

Let's back up a bit.

You will be starting a process of collecting information, making and implementing decisions and evaluating your progress/success.  This will take time.

To that end I suggest that you do everything possible to equip the venue with a properly sized and adjusted system for the intended use.  Do what you can to properly locate and aim the speakers to focus the sound on the primary audience area.  

Do not try to compensate for problems you have not yet experienced.  Time enough to deal with them later.  Of course, you can anticipate what may need to be done, but don' focus solely on that area.

There have been many discussions of how to do coherent sound in reverberant spaces.  I suggest you look them up if you haven't already.  You will also want to study the concept of "critical distance" which is clearly explained in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

There are many techniques you can use before you address extensive and expensive treatments.  Delays, fills, baffles, diffusers and on.

You started the topic by citing "treatments", so those are the answers you got.  I do think, however, that there is much more that can and should be done before or along with structural alterations and/or enhancements.

Bob.....

I wonder what the accoustic absorption rating of raccoon fur might be. Smile  
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2008, 06:35:23 pm »

I needed that. Thanks.
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The roar of the grease paint, the smell of the crowd.

Art Welter

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2008, 08:13:38 pm »

I have done sound in hotel ballrooms that sound like classic boom boom rooms, but then on New Years eve, after loads of balloons are put in, actually sound passably good.

So the only cheap room treatment I know of that is effective is the use of standard decorative balloons. The round surface breaks up high frequency reflections, and the "squishyness" of the balloon absorbs some low frequency.

The more the merrier, just make sure they do not hang in line between the speakers and the audience. A grid of strings might be a good solution, that way the balloons that lost air would simply fall down, rather than being up there empty. If the balloons are decent quality, and tied off well, they may last over a year without re-inflation. Hopefully by then the venue would generate enough revenue to use a better solution.

And of course, make sure any raccoon fur that Bob sells you for this installation has a proper flame retardant certification.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 08:34:05 pm »

Wouldn't say anything but the original post didn't even mention a sound system, it only asked about acoustical treatments for the room.  I agree with Dick's comments regarding gathering information and proper system design, but a room's acoustical environment is a factor even without a sound system.  You can design a system to minimize the impact of a bad acoustical environment and often have to do so, but why do that if you can improve the acoustics to start with and potentially benefit people even when the sound system is not being used?

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Grant Conklin

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2008, 01:32:50 am »

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 17:32

...
Bob.....

I wonder what the accoustic absorption rating of raccoon fur might be. Smile  



Art Welter wrote on Wed, 16 April 2008 19:13

...
And of course, make sure any raccoon fur that Bob sells you for this installation has a proper flame retardant certification.


I don't know what the inside story is there, but that's some funny stuff!  Laughing  Laughing

Grant
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Jonathan Heimberg

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2008, 02:50:25 am »

Avoid one of the most common mistakes folks make when putting up the fiberglass panels. Don't (usually) flush mount them to the wall.

A typical fiberglass treatment panel can have it's effective frequency range doubled by mounting it the same distance as it's thickness away from the surface being treated. So many rooms waste tons of money by avoiding this.

Also consider: a big boomy room with some 2" fiberglass panels will simply become boomier, because the panels will be absorbing in the high end of the spectrum.

Just some thoughts, but definitely get a professionals help. Even find a guy you can buy dinner and get his thoughts, and then you can DIY.

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Jonathan Heimberg

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2008, 02:55:56 am »

Avoid one of the most common mistakes folks make when putting up the fiberglass panels. Don't (usually) flush mount them to the wall.

A typical fiberglass treatment panel can have it's effective frequency range doubled by mounting it the same distance as it's thickness away from the surface being treated. So many rooms waste tons of money by avoiding this.

Also consider: a big boomy room with some 2" fiberglass panels will simply become boomier, because the panels will be absorbing in the high end of the spectrum.

Just some thoughts, but definitely get a professionals help. Even find a guy you can buy dinner and get his thoughts, and then you can DIY.

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Randy Pence

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Re: Treating large rooms
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 08:35:27 am »

Jonathan Heimberg wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 08:55

Avoid one of the most common mistakes folks make when putting up the fiberglass panels. Don't (usually) flush mount them to the wall.

A typical fiberglass treatment panel can have it's effective frequency range doubled by mounting it the same distance as it's thickness away from the surface being treated. So many rooms waste tons of money by avoiding this.

Also consider: a big boomy room with some 2" fiberglass panels will simply become boomier, because the panels will be absorbing in the high end of the spectrum.

Just some thoughts, but definitely get a professionals help. Even find a guy you can buy dinner and get his thoughts, and then you can DIY.




indeed.  The space between the panel and the wall creates an additional barrier and a longer ultimate path for sound reflected back into the room to pass through.  Standard acoustical absorption coefficient charts demonstrates the effectiveness of spaced over flush installation.

Right angle brackets are quite practical for wall mounting.  The can be installed in the proper direction so the panels themselves fit aesthetically without the mounting hardware showing, easily hold the weight, and can be purchased long enough for a healthy compromise between the panels sticking way out into the room and extending the low frequency absorption.  A friend of mine built 100mm thick panels for his studio.  The room sounds great, but he could have possibly used half the material just by using brackets instead of hooks.  However, rockwool is really, really cheap here.  Unless one is using bulk theater curtains, the material covering the panel will be several times more expensive when using pretreated fabric
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